Yellow Memes, Learning III, and Explaining Explanation: How Modeling Can Save the World

YELLOW MEMES, LEARNING III, AND EXPLAINING EXPLANATION: 

HOW MODELING CAN SAVE THE WORLD 

Keynote address at the 2002 Canadian NLP Conference

by David Gordon 

         In preparing this address, naturally the first thing I did was look again at the conference title: "Modeling Excellence in an Increasingly Complex World." And I thought back to when I was a kid, and recalled that it seemed pretty darned complex then, too. We were diving under chairs to protect ourselves from atomic bombs, and crowds of white adults were screaming at a little black girl trying to go to school, and we were fighting the communists everywhere, and flying people to the moon. All in all, seemed pretty busy to me then, too. As a senior in high school, I was a contestant in the Bank of America Science competition. I was one of five students from various schools. They gave us a topic - "What is the most important scientific advance in this century?" - and then we had 15 minutes to discuss it among ourselves before appearing before the judges to debate and respond to questions. In the first 10 seconds of that 15 minutes of preparation, my fellow nascent scientists agreed among themselves that atomic energy was obviously the most important discovery. Everybody knew that. I said nothing. I was too busy watching my brain connecting up my epiphany neurons. When we appeared before the judges, my fellow "debaters" launched into violent agreement with one another regarding the various uses and abuses and futures of atomic energy. Once they had exhausted themselves, I cleared my throat and begged to differ. Actually, I announced, the most important scientific discovery was genetics for, ultimately, it is genetics that will determine who is deciding how that atomic energy is used. And that, as they say, was that.

Well, 35 years later those synapses are still connected. But now they have some company, the connections are richer. I had the right idea way back then, but now I realize that I had the wrong content. Because there is a "who" that will determine how genetics is used as well. And it is that "who" that I want to talk with you about today.

Now, I'm not going to describe a methodology for doing modeling. There are many such methodologies. My colleague, Graham Dawes, and I have ours, codified in the Experiential Array, and there are many others, both within the field of NLP and outside of it. They all have different things to offer us, and they all have something to offer us. And none of them is the right methodology, and in time, each in its turn will be plowed under to fertilize the growth of new methodologies, methodologies that we can not yet imagine. No matter how wonderful any of these methodologies may be, none of them works on its own. It takes people to bring them to life.

What I am going to suggest to you today is that modeling has a tremendous contribution to make to society, and even to our future as a species. That this contribution goes much deeper than the application of modeling to promote personal excellence. With modeling we can come to grips with the essences of human experience. And by applying modeling to understanding the structure of experience at that level, it can provide both conceptual and practical tools for addressing some of the larger problems within and between societies. And beyond even that, I want to float the idea that if modeling as a conceptual and a practical tool were to spread, that it would bring about a fundamental change in being human. "Who" always matters.

I'm sure that every public address in the last six months has included some reference to the events of September 11th, and this one will be no exception. But I hope to depart from the stance that is usually taken in one, fundamental way. Almost all of them note that on September 11th the world changed. Well, I do not agree. After the attack, mystified Americans were asking a very good question: "Why do they hate us?" Four months later, I am watching a car commercial that ends with an SUV tearing across the landscape while a voice intones, "Remember, America is still the greatest country in the world." That is not a different world. That is more of the same old world. Yes, we are waiting in longer lines, strangers are x-raying our shoes, and businessmen are making plans for national identity cards in the United States. But the world views that now conceive of such things were there conceiving of such things long before September 11. The world has not changed. Instead, the world - as it has been for a long time - is becoming more apparent. I don't need to run through a list of seemingly intractable and recurring ills. We all know that list.

There is an admonition in NLP that says, "if you keep doing what you have always done, you will keep getting what you have always gotten." But perhaps we don't really have a choice about that. Perhaps the conflicts, the scrabbling for territory - whether it is the kind of territory that we can hold in our hands, or hold in our bodies, or hold in our brains - will continue to mark our time here. Perhaps, it is fundamental to our nature, and we cannot do otherwise. We can only learn better coping strategies. Perhaps we are sophisticated animals - no less and no more. We cloak our instinctual urges, but they are there nonetheless, and always will be.

Perhaps. But before we capitulate to the (comfortably) familiar, we ought to first consider that what we have been talking about IS the water we swim in now. And, so, it seems it is as it must be, as it can only be.

We are animals, but let's not take the conceptual leap then of assuming that is all we are. The fact that we can make such conceptual leaps is evidence that it is NOT all we are. Language changes everything. The ability to conceptualize through language creates levels of abstraction and complexity that make us different than animals in some very fundamental ways. (Notice that I did not say better than; but different.) Now of course a lot of grief and misery has come with our leap of language, and some folks would just as soon we step back into an existence without it. Not me. Language is one of the grand portals into worlds of experience. As Graham quipped, "Words are the forceps of experience." If you want to see a real miracle, watch someone reading a book. Just watch. And as you do, consider what you are witnessing; a person is scanning marks on a page, and those marks are turning into a trip down river with Huck and Tom, or into matter condensing out of the void in the universe's first tenth of a second, or into the smiling thoughts of the Dali Lama. Perhaps we can use that same ability-in new and transformative ways-to conceive of what is possible for us as human beings, to dip ourselves into some different waters. What could those waters be? And how might we begin to get nicely wet?

To paraphrase Shakespeare, experience is all. The scientist seeing tracks of particles in a cloud chamber is having an experience, and his experience is no more or less real and full and meaningful than that of the touch of a loving hand upon your own or the wordless ecstasy of a mystic feeling the presence of god. There is, in a very real sense, nothing outside of experience. Certainly there may be worlds that exist outside of our experience, but the moment we know of them, they are in experience. Or perhaps another way to think of this is that we bring worlds into existence through experience. In fact this is what I believe. This is real. You are real. This room is real. Our experiences are real. They are not, however, the only possible realities. Perhaps we are holding this room together with our shared realities. I don't know. I really don't know if we could join our perceptual hands in some new way right now and have this ceiling dissolve into a pinwheel of golden stars… Rats... Well, right now I do not know how to do that. In fact the only thing on that list that I do know can be changed is experience. We know that for us as individuals. And certainly the work that you have been doing as researchers and practitioners of NLP has been - and continues to be - a source of experiential change and personal transformation for countless people.

When I was 10 years old, my parents took me to a movie called, "The Flower Drum Song." I saw this movie only once, and remember nothing about it, except for one song. As I recall the scene, someone was complaining about life, then someone else launched into a song, whose refrain was, "A hundred million miracles…a hundred million miracles…are happening every day!" That grabbed me at the time and, as you can see, stayed with me. Now, with that little story (hopefully) greasing my way, I will now commit a bit of NLP heresy. Like the proverbial moth to the flame, I am naturally drawn to committing heresies. Despite the heat, I think this particular heresy is worth a closer look:

When we speak of experience, we are usually referring to the experience of the individual. And when we look around for what to model, we have naturally been attracted to those individuals and those abilities that glitter. Like gold itself, their apparent scarcity gives them tremendous value. We mark them out and add them to the list of "human excellence." But that is a relatively short list, artificially truncated, I believe, by the notion of "excellence" itself.

Because we are looking for excellence, where do we tend to look? To the geniuses, the financial whizzes, the guys with big, perfect teeth. Meanwhile, there is a teacher in your child's school who is particularly good at encouraging children to try things they fear may be too difficult for them; meanwhile there is the guy who does your dry cleaning who makes everyone feel that their pant suits and shirts are precious and worthy of being cared for; meanwhile there is a friend of yours that can step out onto a dance floor and let herself go. Modeling is much more than a tool for excellence; modeling is a window on everything that is human.

Now, I have a rather wide idea of what "everything human means." For instance, tube worms have been living in the sulfurous heat spewing from vents at the bottom of the ocean for who knows how long. And meanwhile, back on dry land, human beings were evolving. But the moment we learn of those tube worms, they become part of the human world, of our world. And we become part of the tube worm's world, though I have no idea what that is as an experience for them. It is an experience for us, however. To look at, touch, think about, perceive them is human experience, our experience and, so, open to modeling.

Whether any of our tube worm experiences is worth modeling depends upon who you ask. And I think we need to ask around more than we are currently. For instance, there is the ability of the tube worm biologist to want to know how a living system works. Just that wanting to know is itself an ability. Or the ability to devote oneself to a project that will take years, or the ability to find something wriggling and pale in the dim light beautiful, the ability to conquer fear and climb into a minisub to descend to crushing depths, the ability to assemble facts and derive an hypothesis. The notion of excellence can act as an experiential and perceptual filter that obscures the hundreds of plain old competencies and experiences that actually make up our daily lives. Well, competence is how we get things done in life, and experience is where we live. I am not by any means against excellence. But I do think it has skewed our attention, veiling our eyes to the infinite wonders that we could be noticing, appreciating and bringing into our own lives that are happening right around us, all the time. I think we would be much better off seeking human competence rather than excellence. And where should we look for these abilities? That world of possibilities is sitting right beside you, right in front of and behind you, right inside you … A hundred million miracles…are happening every day.

NLP produces its share of those miracles, and I have no doubt that the work we have been doing in NLP will continue to make the lives of many individuals much, much better. I do have doubts, however, about whether that work will address the bigger problems of societies and clashing cultures, problems that seem intractable, that keep chugging along despite so many great efforts and sacrifices over so many years. I think that NLP as a discipline and, in particular, modeling do have real contributions to make toward addressing these larger problems. To do this we will need to step outside of the territory we are accustomed to. And I think that Gregory Bateson's concept of Levels of Learning can help us do this. (My sketch will be unjustly brief, but I hope offers enough to give us a basis to move forward.)

Learning Level I is most easily understood as what is going on in stimulus-response learning. Mom calls out, "Dinner's ready!" and you start salivating. A hand is extended and you shake it.

More interesting - and particularly significant for us human beings - is Learning II. Learning II is the process of deriving the premises (or, if you prefer, rules) that operate within a particular context. For instance, suppose you are a child and your school teacher is in the middle of a stirring lecture on the Plains Indians. You are bursting with questions and blurt out, "But who was their president? Who told them what to do? Did the kids have to go to school?" Your teacher scowls and informs you that it is not polite to interrupt and to keep your questions until the end. Now that teacher just taught you something, but not about the Plains Indians. You learn from that experience (or a string of such experiences) that when someone is giving a lecture, do not interrupt with questions. And now, thirty years later, you are listening to a lecture and, even though you may be bursting with questions, you hold them until the end. This is Learning II - the establishing of premises or rules operating in a context - and it is absolutely pervasive for us. A doctor has her premises about how disease works, a politician has his premises about how government works, each of us has premises about how we work (that is, who we are). Now here is the thing to notice: when the physician's patient dies when he should not have, or recovers from a terminal illness when he should not have, the doctor does not respond with, "Well heck, maybe I should take another look at this medical model I've been using." Instead, the patient died - or lived - because of unknown complications, genetic predisposition, an act of god, and so on. The politician whose efforts to crush the opposition has generated even more opposition does not smack himself in the forehead and moan, "What have I been doing?! I need to reevaluate my ideas about how the world works!" No, obviously he has not applied enough force, or not applied it in the right places, or it is not the right time. This ought to sound familiar. The important lesson here is that the premises we hold about a context are not easily challenged by intermittent failures of those premises. In fact, our ability to explain failures of the premises reinforces their validity. This clears the way for applying the same old solutions and, consequently, generating again and again the same old problems. Is there a way out of that rut? There is, but it requires jumping to a level of understanding that encompasses more than the stream we are currently in; we have to jump to a level that allows us to perceive how streams form. And this brings us to Learning III.

If Learning II is discovering the premises that are operating within a particular context, then Learning III is discovering how we form premises, regardless of the context. Learning III asks the question, "What are the patterns that determine how we human beings construct our worlds?" Learning III is what propels us out of the grinder of a particular world view so we can see who is turning the crank. I do not want to pretend to you for a minute that this is an easy jump. Even so, it occurs to me that if we were to bring a modeling approach to bear on questions of that type, not only might they be answered with some revelatory and useful models, but in the tumultuous process of trying to come to grips with such experiences we would be at the same time acquiring for ourselves the conceptual and experiential thinking patterns of Learning III itself! And let me propose a likely candidate to begin this venture into multi-type learning: and that is, the uniquely human pursuit of explanation.

When my daughter, Kyra, was 10 years old, she decided (on humanitarian and political grounds) to become a vegetarian. So for three years she avoided meat of any kind. As she headed into puberty, however, her body started nudging her: "Hey, take a look at that hamburger! Doesn't that look great? Hey, is that fried chicken I smell? Lady, I could use some of that!" Kyra was in a turmoil for some months. One day, exasperated with the whole conflict, she declared she just had to have some meat and dove into a hamburger. Now she enjoyed that burger on one level, but on another she was still very troubled. It seemed a betrayal. She resumed eating meat, but she continued to be bothered about her fall. Now, Kyra had some allergies and, so, often had a stuffed-up nose. After three days of eating meat again, she was walking through the house when she suddenly came to a halt. She had just realized that her nose was clear! And she instantly knew why: Obviously her nose clearing was due to the fact that she was eating meat. Exaltation immediately followed. This was apparently all she needed to realize in order to feel okay about being an omnivore, and she relaxed. As a father, I was grateful. But as a thinking person, I was wondering, "What the heck just happened here?"

What happened was an explanation. Once the language thing gets going, so does the explanation thing, and very powerful it is, too. The human phenomenon of "explaining" is not an adjunct to our experience, nor is it the yoke we must bear for having strayed far from our natural state. It is quintessentially human. Of course, it can be the source of misery, both for us as individuals, for us as societies and cultures, and for the planet of which we are a part. It can also be the source of wonder and greatness and new understanding. Our explanations can take us deeper into the mysteries of the world, and those explanations can be scientific, mystical, mechanistic, relational, philosophical, psychological, practical…anything. And our explanations also help keep us the same. Kyra explains her nose, the doctor explains the remission, the politician explains the uprising, and we explain ourselves. Anything so central, not only to our daily, individual lives, but to us as groups, organizations, communities, countries and a species ought to be something we understand.

And, of course, in doing that - modeling how explanation really works - we would be opening ourselves to Level III. We would be moving into a position of exploring how we create a human world. And one can hope that as our facility and ease with Learning III grows, so will our desire and ability to move ourselves toward what we want to become.

As you can see, I am proposing a bigger frame within which to think of experience, namely, the frame of society, culture and (we're dreaming here, so let's fly) humanity. Actually, "within the frame" is incorrect. It seems to me that the structures of our experiences are the frames of a society. A society or culture does not exist apart from the people who live it. Our shared experiences of who we are as Americans or Canadians or Samoans or Chinese or Brazilians or Italians; our shared experiences of who we are as Christians or Muslims or Jews or Buddhists or atheists; our shared experiences of who we are as mothers or fathers or husbands or wives or lovers; our shared experiences of who we are as doctors or artists or therapists or teachers; all of these shared experiences weave us together into societies and cultures. And when any of the experiences of who we are changes, so too does society. "We" become different.

We need a big picture, a picture that we can dream and think our way into, that can serve as the organizing principle for our ideas and efforts. So, what DO we want to become?

A big picture that I have been finding useful and interesting was originally sketched for us by Clare Graves, then expanded and deepened by Beck and Cowan under the name of Spiral Dynamics. I'm sure many of you are already familiar with this model of societal and cultural development, and I won't turn this into a seminar on their very important model. But I do want to point out a few of its elements, since I think they establish a direction that is worthy of our efforts and to which modeling can make a significant contribution.

The basic idea here is that cultures go through stages of development driven by a characteristic set of values. This set of values operates much like genetic code. The genetic code provides fundamental information about how to generate the complexity of a living organism. Similarly, these value sets provide fundamental information about how to organize the great complexities of society and culture. To capture this analogy, Spiral Dynamics uses Richard Dawkins' notion of "memes," which he defines as "a unit of cultural transmission." For example, the value memes of the first stage are concerned with basic survival of the individual - food, water, shelter, procreation. As a way to keep these stages straight, Beck and Cowan have also assigned them colors, and this first stage is called the Beige Meme. The second is the Purple Meme, and is concerned with protection through kinship groups. The third - the Red Meme - is about wielding individual power. The fourth meme, Blue, is about conformance to accepted truth. The Orange Meme is fifth and is characterized by the individual search for truth. And the sixth meme - Green - is concerned with group acceptance of differences. And that is about where most of us in this room are now.

Other individuals and each culture is somewhere along this continuum of development. Each stage has it upsides and its downsides. And, naturally, whichever stage you are in seems to be "right," and folks in other stages are mystifying, misguided, malicious or just plan wrong. As the next stage of values becomes widespread within an individual or within the culture, that stage emerges, becoming more and more characteristic of that whole person or group. Notice that I said "more and more characteristic," and not "supplants" or "replaces." All of the previous stages are still operating within the culture and, indeed, within every individual in the culture. And any of these earlier value sets are ready to reemerge as the situation calls for them. That car commercial I told you about was red red red. But the Jerry Seinfeld show that followed it was about not judging people by their appearance, and was green green green. Nevertheless, a particular meme can be on the ascendancy, proving its developmental worth, spreading throughout the population, and becoming reified in language, logic, art, literature, philosophy, architecture, car design and sitcoms. In this way it becomes the water we swim in and no longer notice.

I said there were eight stages. The last two - Yellow and Turquoise - are waiting for us. The Yellow meme is concerned with the perception and integration of structures and systems, and the Turquoise with the synergistic unification of all forms, forces and beings. Now these memes sound like where I want to go. I particularly want to draw your attention to the Yellow Meme now, because it is, I believe, within reach. As I said, the Yellow Meme is concerned with the perception and integration of structures and systems. Philosopher Ken Wilbur describes the world of the Yellow meme like this: "Life is a kaleidoscope of natural hierarchies…systems, and forms. Flexibility, spontaneity, and functionality have the highest priority. Differences and pluralities can be integrated into interdependent, natural flows. Egalitarianism is complemented with natural degrees of excellence where appropriate. Knowledge and competency should supersede rank, power, status or group. The prevailing world order is the result of the existence of different levels of reality (memes) and the inevitable patterns of movement up and down the dynamic spiral…" Okay, sign me up! If only it were that easy. Nevertheless, the Yellow meme paints a big picture we ought to consider making a reality. If we can't turn the ceiling into a pinwheel of stars, perhaps we can at least turn life into a "kaleidoscope of natural hierarchies." And, the Yellow Meme IS just around the corner for us. There are people for whom it is already a reality. I myself have had precious glimpses of it while engaged in modeling, moments when the content of what I am modeling vanishes like the blur around a subject as the lens snaps into focus. And suddenly I see the dynamic web of structures that make up this person in this world, this ecology of experience.

If something is itching in your brain, it may be that you are noticing a kinship, a synergy between the Yellow meme and modeling.

Modeling has the potential to be an epistemological snowball rolling down the current hillside of human snow. The future that could avalanche from that snowball is one in which people are thinking more and more in terms of structure and systems. The kind of thinking I am talking about when I speak of "systemic thinking" is not that of seeing a string of cause-effects. No matter how far into the future you are seeing the string of cause-effects roll out, that is not systemic thinking. Systemic thinking is perceiving the web of relationships - both causal and associative - that are operating simultaneously to produce this moment, this experience, this event, this social situation, this cultural bias, this love of a sunset or of a neighbor. Now that type of thinking is a tall order, I know. At least it is for me.

But we do not have to make everyone modelers, capable of such an enormous grasp of this staggering web, in order to have a deep impact on society and culture. The example I am thinking of is that of "relativity." Here is an idea that few of us understand in its theoretical, technical or applicative aspects. Nevertheless, the idea of relativity - and the implications that swirl around it - have permeated our society, and even our culture, at every level. People who know nothing about riding light beams past gravity wells nevertheless take it for granted that different people can have different ideas about the same incident depending upon, say, where they "are" in their lives. Relativistic thinking has become part of the water in which we swim, so we do not notice it. Nevertheless (as we talked about earlier), the nature of that water - its viscosity, clarity, currents - affects greatly how we swim.

I want to suggest to you that the widespread application of modeling could bring about a similar liquid change in our world, a change in which systemic thinking would become a part of the water in which we swim. We cannot at this moment, from this side of the mirror, know just what those changes really would be, or where they would lead. We can speculate that complexity will come to be appreciated, rather than feared. We can imagine that the first response to difficulty will not be to get to the bottom line; there would probably BE no bottom line. Instead there would be intersecting lines of possibility, each of which carries its load of opportunity and difficulties. And systems would be cherished, cherished because all systems reveal the inter-connectedness of everything. They are, in a very real sense, us. And the question, "Is it possible?" will fade, to be replaced by the question, "How can it be done?" Such a transition - if pervasive - will be profound in its impact on the world. Indeed (and I blush at my audacity), it would bring about a next step in the evolution of human consciousness, akin to that advanced by language itself.

There. I've said it.

So, I have recommended that we broaden our modeling vision to look beyond excellence to embrace the vital mundane. I also recommended that we deepen our modeling vision by applying it to fundamental human experiential processes, such as the process of explanation. And I suggested that, by doing that, we will move ourselves into Learning III, a level at which there are suddenly available to us choices about how to get out of Level II self-perpetuating problems. And finally, I suggested that the Yellow meme of Spiral Dynamics - the "life is a kaleidoscope of natural hierarchies" meme - describes a future worth pursuing, and that the spread of modeling - even as an idea - will help bring that about.

Well isn't this going to make everything more complex and difficult to understand and make choices about and deal with? This is, of course, how we see it from THIS side of the mirror. When Alice knelt on the mantelpiece and gazed into the mirror, she did not see the different world that was waiting inside it; she saw only herself. It was not until she pressed her hand against what had always been solid before, that she slipped through into that other world. Trying to unravel and follow the threads of complexity of another world with our current ways of perceiving is, of course, formidable, staggering even. But for those of us who cross over, it may not be - in fact, I am confident will not be - overwhelming, once we are "there." Then it will just be "here."

These things do not happen on their own, however.

Beck and Cowan's Spiral road makes the journey to Yellow and beyond seem inevitable. But I think this is not so. All of the previous levels are operating simultaneously in the world, with one or another of them holding sway among different groups of people. And all of the previous levels are alive in each of us as well. And again, one or another currently holds sway over each of us. It is not written how far each of us will go. Nor is it written how far a society will go. But perhaps the path itself is written. Remember the people we were watching read earlier? What was written on the pages of their books did not live until those people read it. Similarly, the path of the future does not exist until it is walked. Francisco Varela captured this notion beautifully in the title to one of his papers: "Laying down a path in walking." Exactly so. Like any path, the Yellow Meme path must be walked in order to come into existence. The Learning III path must be walked to come into existence. And the modeling path must be walked to come into existence. And it is folks who do the walking. Remarkably, collective change is brought about by individuals.

Are our societies, cultures, histories rivers in which each of us is but a drop? Yes.

Does that mean we are at their mercy? No, I don't think so. All of us have ample evidence that experience does change as underlying structures change, and that these changes in the structure of experience do occur, even in the face of societal and cultural torrents. This is not speculation. All of us know-or at least know of-folks whose experiential world is Yellow (or chartreuse or mauve). And probably most of us have dipped a toe or two into the next color. There is plenty of evidence that the possibility space is much larger than the experiential space most of us currently hang out in.

Can we make a difference in the river? Well…

…Several years ago I clipped a wonderful - if a bit macabre - little article out of the newspaper. It told of a Slovenian fisherman who had hooked a huge fish at his favorite lake. He was a passionate fisherman. He couldn't seem to land that fish, and he wouldn't let go. Eventually, it pulled him under and he still wouldn't let go, and he drowned. His last words were, "Now I've got him!" I sometimes feel like that Slovenian, angling for understanding with my little modeling pole. It may pull me under, too. That would NOT be a tragedy! I don't consider that fisherman's death a tragedy, at least not for him. He went down doing what he loved - at least that's the story I will make up for him. He'd hooked the fish of his dreams, and I imagine a very lusty, "Now I've got him!" Not pathetic, not fearful... but joyful.

The snowball of modeling may have a snowball's chance in hell of getting rolling, let alone starting an avalanche. The obstacles are great. It will take time. It will be a lot of work. But for me, for what I know, to not pursue that would be, in a real sense, to give up on…us.

Ask David Gordon: Tele-Seminar

September 8th, 2004

interviewed by Dr. Harlan Kilstein

 

Harlan:  Hello Everyone, My name is Harlan Kilstein and I'd like to welcome you to a special tele-seminar.  It's a tremendous honor to be here with David Gordon, who is one of the original developers of Neuro-Linguistic Programming.  Gosh, years and years ago and over the years, David has been one of the architects of NLP, specializing in, what was really the heart of NLP, and that's something called Modeling.  And so, David, because we have people with all different backgrounds and abilities, could you give us the real brief summary of what's NLP and what's Modeling?

David:  Alright, well, probably the best way to describe NLP is that it's an approach to understanding and affecting experience and behavior that's based on a very powerful idea and that idea is that experience and behavior have structure.  That is that underlying everything that we do, both internally and externally, there is some kind of structure that gives rise to our experience, gives rise to our behavior.  And I think that's the central, that's the core, that's the heart of NLP.  Is that particular notion, that idea, and what that idea makes possible is to start looking at the experiences and behaviors that people have and asking the question; well, how are they organizing themselves, what structure are they operating out of that makes it possible for them to manifest those experiences and behaviors.  So, that's what we did and then we didn't have those kind of words that to what we were doing in the early days.  In the early days, we were just doing it and we didn't have, you know, the high falootin explanations but what we were doing was, we were finding people who did things that we, for whatever reason, we found interesting or useful.  And asked that question, you know, how were they organizing the structure, their experience, not intentionally of course, but how is their experience organized in order to manifest that particular ability or particular quality.  And then once we have that structure, then the next question was, well is this the structure that if we take it on or somebody else uses it or takes it on, does it produce the same kind of experiential behavioral outcome.  And when we would do that, when we would find a particular structure that was useful in that way, we'd turn it into a technique, we codified it and make step one, step two, and step three.  And really what happened over the years is that those techniques because they are often very powerful and useful have become what the focus of NLP is today.  That is that NLP is now known for being a discipline, which now only half of all techniques continues to produce techniques for change, for interacting with people, for having some kind of influence over your own experience and the experience of other people. 

Harlan: Let's jump right into the questions that we have.  There were hundreds of questions submitted and let's get started right away, David.

David: Ok, can I just say one thing? 

Harlan: Sure

David:  For that which is that there were a lot of questions were people asked for some kind of personal problem they wanted advice on a particular problem that they had and this isn't the situation or context to address those.  My heart went out to those people immediately, those are the questions I really did want to answer but we really can't do that here so I won't be answering any of those kinds of questions here. 

Harlan:  Maybe some other forum.

David:  Yes

Harlan:  David, go way back to the origins of NLP and over the years in your experience what is the most effective way that you found to quickly and deeply develop rapport with a person you just met for the first time?

David: Yes, well, it kind of was in the canon of NLP.  The way rapport is typically approached and taught is through Matching and Mirroring both, one's physiology and Matching and Mirroring people's predicates. 

Harlan:  What are Matching and Mirroring?

David:  Well, that's when you make your breathing tempo match the breathing tempo of this other person; your body movements match the body movements of this other person.  In terms of predicates, you match your words to match the kinds of words they use, you use the same kinds of words and I have found that not to be that useful in terms of creating rapport, in fact, what I found to be far more effective is to be genuinely curious and interested in who this other person is.  You know, I think that, there's been this complaint over the years and I think it's a legitimate one that Matching and Mirroring is just a manipulation.  Now, I'm not against manipulating but it is a manipulation and it's often perceived that way.  If it is perceived that way by the other person, you can forget about rapport, rapport is over and I think rightly so.  But, what I find that people where rapport truly comes from, is from this other person recognizing, not necessarily consciously, but getting the feeling, let's say, that you really are interested in who they are.  And I don't think that, I'm not suggesting that we pretend to be interested in somebody but what I am suggesting that if you really want to have rapport with people that the thing to cultivate in yourself is a genuine curiosity for who other people are and a genuine caring for who other people are.

Harlan:  Ok, I like that.  Well, that's a unique approach for NLP.

David:  Well, you know, it is and it isn't because, I want to state this because a minute ago we were talking about NLP being based on the notion that's there is a structure behind experience and behavior and structure, you know, I describe what being interested in this other person is, it might be possible for somebody listening to me say those things and say, “Oh, that's not structure” but that's not the case that is, in fact, structure.  Structure is: whatever are the elements that go into creating a particular pattern of experience.  And what I was just talking about in terms of rapport, part of the structure, the natural structure of rapport is that whenever people feel that they are meaningful to somebody else, there will naturally be rapport.  And so that to me is an example of structure, I realize it's not a typical example in NLP but to me it is strictly NLP Structure.

Harlan:  Fantastic!  Now, many, many years ago, you were involved in Modeling a rather remarkable individual who's name was Dr. Milton H. Erickson who is known popularly as really the founder of modern Hypnosis and not the manipulative show, stage hypnosis but Clinical Hypnosis.  And, one of the things that Erickson was known for when he worked with a client was getting them to do all kinds of unusual tasks. Classic stories of “Go climb Squall Peak” or “Go to the Botanical Gardens”.

David: Or “Go eat a pot of beans and go home and practice farting”

Harlan: Or that one.

David:[laughter] Yeah, right.

Harlan:  How did Erickson get his clients to do these tasks and what did you observe that made the difference when you worked with him?

David:  Well, the way he got them to do these tasks was from the, I would say, from the inside out.  By that I mean, is that Erickson would learn, discover: Who is this person who's sitting in front of me.  Who really is this person?  Who's this individual?  What do they care about?  What's important to them?  What do they respond to?  You know, he was, just as I was talking about before, in establishing rapport.  He was curious and interested in who this person, this particular individual is?  And the way he would get people to do the things that, often bizarre or strange things, he got them to do is that he would couch or form his either request or his suggestions or demands in ways that fit with who this person was.  What their needs were as individuals and these needs weren't necessarily needs that they were aware of.  They could be psychological needs. If somebody has the need to resist anything that they are told to do, then the way to satisfy that need and get them to do what you want, Erickson recognized would be to tell them, “Well, I don't want you to do this, don't do this” and that is, to me, a not an example of manipulation.  That's an example of Utilization.  It's an example; Erickson's work is replete with examples of him recognizing who this person is and then figuring out “How can I use who this person is in a way that's in service of the work that we're doing together, the change in experiences this person needs?”

Harlan:  Quickly, your favorite Erickson story?

David:  My favorite, my favorite, holy mackerel,

Harlan:  Now, this is out of hundreds and hundreds.

David:  Yes, ah yes, I know.  Well, I have to say, well actually, wow.  My favorite Erickson story actually chokes me up just to think about it.  [laughter] My absolute favorite Erickson story in not one in which he was a therapist but occurred when he was a young man in the town he was growing up in and he sites it as an example of how change really works and I think he probably thought a lot from it.  And very briefly, there was a young man in the town that was nothing but trouble.  He went to reform school, he was headed on a fast track to jail and everybody was afraid of him and he was a criminal.  And he had just gotten out of jail, I think, and he was in town and there was a young woman there who caught his eye and he stopped her in the street and said, “I going to take you to the dance” and she replied “You can if you're a Gentleman”.  I won't go into the details but that started a snowball of changes rolling in this guy and he started changing.  He eventually became the most upright citizen of the town.  He was head of the school board and a father.  Of course, he married this woman and they had children.  And I find that a very touching and important story.

Harlan:  You know, a lot of people are on the call, who want to make some kind of change in themselves and we have a couple of questions here that are really similar.  Number One is “How do you use NLP techniques on yourself?” and then the second question that goes with that is “Why does NLP seem so difficult to do on oneself?”

David:  Well, first of all, “How you use NLP techniques on yourself?”  Well, you end up having a conversation with yourself.  [laughter] Many of the techniques are sequences of questions and explorations and then doing things in your experience which, of course, can be done either with someone taking you through the experience or doing it on yourself.  And I, certainly, did that for years.  I, certainly, did that for years. 

Harlan:  Give an example of a technique that?

David:  Well, like, you know, one that springs to mind is, probably, the one I did the most on myself in the early days, which was Six-Step Reframing.

Harlan:  OK

David:  In which you, you know, take some problem and find out, well, what are the various parts of me who are involved in this problem and what are they trying to do for me.  What do they want and find other ways to satisfy their good intentions while supporting whatever change I want to make.  What I found was that sometimes I could do that work with myself but more often than not, I had difficultly in using these techniques with myself.  And, I think, what I scribe that to is that, you know, “I'm pretty clever at kidding myself just as I think I'm clever all along about various things.”  It's pretty easy for me, for instance, to think I have, or to think or feel I have, dove deeply enough into a particular situation when, in fact, I haven't.  And, I think, it's very useful, I found it very useful to have somebody on the outside who is in a position to notice what's going on with me, ask me questions that I wouldn't ask myself, wouldn't think to ask myself, to challenge me about things I either don't want to challenge myself about or it hasn't occurred to me to challenge myself about.  So, I think that's very useful, you can use all the techniques with oneself but as I say, I think it's difficult simple because a lot of problems, let's say, the places where we get stuck, are going to be places that we are blind to. 

Harlan:  Would you say that's by omission or commission?

David:  I say it's sometimes by omission and sometimes by unconscious co-mission.

Harlan:  We don't want to see our own faults.

David:  Yeah, which is completely natural and understandable, you know, this is, well, it's understandable and natural.  And so, I think, that's what is so useful about having somebody on the outside.  There are, I would say, there are some NLP techniques that are particularly suited for oneself which is Anchoring.

Harlan:  What's Anchoring?

David:  I'm sorry.  Anchoring is establishing a stimulus response connection between some state or experience that you want to have and some kind of cue.  So, for instance, when I get into a social situation and I am shy normally and I want to be more outgoing, one of the techniques is to first find in myself that experience of being warm and outgoing and really establish that experience in myself and create some kind of connection between that and my cue.  Such as, touching my fingers together, for instance, and the idea is then the next time I'm in my social situation, I can touch my fingers together and it will help access in me that state of being, you know, warm and gregarious.  That is all that Anchoring is, that is all that Anchoring is.  It has tremendous numbers of uses, wide range of uses, that's all it is.

Harlan:  Great.  One of the things that Erickson and other people who were change masters over the years, dating back to the Bible, dating back to wandering preachers, was storytelling.  Actually, your first book was all about a very special kind of storytelling that you called a Therapeutic Metaphor.  Is there one recipe or pattern that one can use to create this powerful metaphors and what would that pattern be?

David:  Well, I think, there is not one pattern, [laughter] or recipe for creating these metaphors.  It's, certainly, you know if you look at my book or you if come to the seminars, I certainly have a recipe that is I have a structure for creating these metaphors.  And there are other folks out there who have other structures for creating metaphors.  And, however, while those recipes create metaphors, they don't necessarily create a powerful metaphor.  What gives a metaphor power are not the recipes, what gives a metaphor power is a couple things, one is that the person who is listening to the metaphor, who is receiving the metaphor resonates with it, that is when they hear the metaphor their experience is, whether conscious or unconscious, their experience is “Oh, that's me”.  They resonate with the story.  That's one thing that makes the metaphor powerful and does not come from a recipe.  I think that that comes from, you the metaphor creator understanding who this person is and when I say understand, what I really mean, is that you have a feeling for who this person is.  One of the things that I encourage in my seminars and what I teach folks is to step into the experience of the client, step into the other person's experience to feel what it feels like to be in their world.  In particular, the world of their problem situation and one of the things I want to do in a metaphor is to imbue it, to put into that metaphor that same emotional content, that same subjective experience as a way to help the metaphor be more powerful.  That is a way to help a person resonate with it.  And the other way in which a metaphor can become more powerful is if it offers this person a new way to perceive the world, if it takes them somewhere different in their experience.  And that again, I don't think there's a recipe for it, that comes from you, the person who is creating the metaphor, from your life experiences and I think that's OK, I think it's important for the person creating the metaphor to tap their own life experience and put that into that story.  And, hopefully, it will be powerful and useful for this person, there's no guarantee. 

Harlan:  Now, for those people who are on the call who have never had the pleasure of training with or studying with David Gordon, when David teaches he very often tells stories.  These stories are fascinating, these stories are life changing.  And if you do want to study any of the things that David has done, his two early works have really stood the test of time.  His first book called “Therapeutic Metaphors”, which all about how to construct these very special stories, was published 26 years ago.  It's still available, it's still in print.  It's available on Amazon.com, you might have to wait a little bit because it's a special order but you will get the book.  His second book is called “Phoenix”, that was all about the therapeutic patterns of Milton Erickson, and that was written with Maribeth Meyers-Anderson.  Both books, tremendous books, if you go ahead and order these books, we're certainly not trying to sell them or push them, you will be very happy with, not only your understanding of yourself, but how you are able to assist others in change.  And speaking of change, we are going in a new direction here.

David:  OK

Harlan:  One of the questions was: “How does one enter Self-Hypnosis?”  I'm going to ask you a more basic question of “What can you do with Self-Hypnosis and do you have any particular ways that are your favorites or exercises to help someone do that?”

David:  Yes, and this is the way that I was given by Erickson and who, this is actually what Betty Erickson, Mrs. Erickson, for what she would do to put herself into trance and then Erickson passed it on to many others.  In fact, I think, he may have even written about it somewhere and it's very simple and I personally found it very effective.  And that is to situate yourself in a nice quiet place or a place you're alone, I should say, and decide if there is anything you want to work on unconsciously, first of all, decide what that is ahead of time so you don't have to work on it while you are in your trance and decide how long you want to be in your trance.  And then, notice, just remark to yourself, and notice what three things you see, then what three things you hear and then what three things you feel.  And then you notice what two things you see, what two things you hear, what two things you feel and then what one thing you see, what one thing you hear and what one thing you feel and then allow your eyes to close.  And it's quite remarkable, how naturally that takes one into a trance and also, I should say, like most trance experiences and most trance work, trance is something, and Erickson was very explicit about this, trance is something that people learn to do and that the more they do it they get better and better at it.  Sometimes, he would train clients for, literally, hundreds of hours in trance work before he actually got down to therapy with them.  So, don't expect that the first time you do that Self-Hypnosis that you'd be put away into somnambulistic trance but I think you'll find that as you do it, each time you do it, you will get to nicer and nicer levels of trance work.  Now, the other part of the question,

Harlan:  I'm going to ask you a question on Self-Hypnosis and then I'll come back to that.

David:  OK

Harlan:  What would be an example of an appropriate thing one could do with Self-Hypnosis and what would be an example of an inappropriate thing one could do with Self-Hypnosis?

David:  Appropriate?  Appropriate, for me anyway, has always been asking for insight, asking for insight into some difficulty I have, something I'm dealing with, something I want to understand.  This insight, of course, could come as words, as an image, as a fully blown experience, it could come in many ways but I think asking for insight and understanding something I'm fervent with is excellent to do that with, is an excellent thing to use Self-Hypnosis for. 

Harlan:  Inappropriate?

David:  Whew, inappropriate? 

Harlan:  I mean, what would someone do that Self-Hypnosis probably would not be of any benefit for?  Could you do Self-Hypnosis to change someone else's behavior?

David:  [laughter] That's a good one, Harlan.

Harlan:  Could you do Self-Hypnosis if you are in sales to make people want to purchase from you?

David:  Well, No.[laughter] As we would say in the world of NLP, that's ill-formed right to begin with.  What you could use Self-Hypnosis for is to change or affect you own behavior and experience.  Of course, that will affect other people around you.  So, to that extent, yes, of course, you could use it to have an impact on others, to influence others but you would be making a terrible mistake if you were thinking that you had control or could control other people through hypnotizing yourself and changing your own behavior, that is not the case. 

Harlan:  Back to the last part of that question.  Do you have any exercises for people?

David:  Exercises? 

Harlan:  Self-Hypnosis or?

David:  The one exercise, I mean actually doing what I suggested is, of course, an exercise in itself but the other thing I would suggest doing as an exercise, is as you go through your day, periodically, notice, just check in and notice, are you in a trance or not because people do go in and out of trances.  And find, moments, times when you've gone into a trance and that's useful because what it does it starts training your body and training your experience to notice when you are moving in that direction or you are in that state.  And, like getting use to anything, the more you are aware of your transiting into it, the easier it becomes to do it intentionally. 

Harlan:  Fantastic!  I'd like to shift in a direction that has been a particular favorite of yours and something you've come back to over the years and that's Modeling.

David:  Yeah

Harlan:  First, let's say, that you wanted to model a successful businessman.  Someone suggested Richard Branson, or Sir Richard Branson as you pointed out to me, who is Virgin Airlines and Virgin Records.

David:  Yeah

Harlan:  What would be the three most important things if you wanted to Model someone, let's say someone who was a successful businessman.

David:  Well, the first thing, I would suggest doing is to recognize that when you talk about someone being a successful businessman, that is a huge context, presumably and in all certainly, there are a lot of different things, a lot of different abilities that this person has, that come together that make it possible for them to be successful.

Harlan:  Such as communicating in a particular?

David:  Being able to communicate, being able to lead, being able to negotiate, being able to control his state, I mean, it could be all kinds of things.  There will be all kinds of things that come together that make it possible for this person to be successful.  So, one of the fundamental mistakes that people make in Modeling land, I see this again and again, is they take way too big of chunk.  They go to Richard Branson and say “I want to model you, how to be successful?”, “So, tell me what do I need to do to be successful?”  Well, you know, it's a lot; it ends up being a mish mash.  So, the first thing to do is to break down, you know, what it is, what are the various things that he does that combine to make it possible for him to be successful?  And then, model each of those things or each of those things that you need to model.  That's kind of the first thing.

Harlan:  So, if you were going to model someone like Richard Branson, or Bill Gates for that matter, you might end up modeling hundreds of different behaviors or patterns.

David:  Well, that is, [laughter] that is part of the art of Modeling.  Maybe, it's the first art of Modeling, which is identifying the level of complexity at which you want to be entering into this person's experience.  So, what I was saying before is to go to Bill Gates and say “Ok, let's make a model of how you're successful”.  That's probably way too big a, what we call a chunk size, way too big a context to tackle in Modeling.  But, we want to break it down into several abilities, into smaller abilities; now, we could keep breaking it down into smaller and smaller abilities.  At the other extreme, you can go too small; you could go into abilities that are too small.  You could model Bill Gates ability to shake hands during a negotiation.  I mean, you could model that, how to shake hands the way Bill Gates does during a negotiation, but do we need that?  Is that really where the heart of his ability and his success comes from, probably not?  So, part of the art of Modeling is identifying at what level of complexity we want to be approaching this person's abilities.  And that, in itself obviously, is a very big topic but for those of us talking about this right now, what you suggested, recognize that there will be levels that are more complex and levels that are less complex, wherever you are in your approach.  And you want to consider what is most useful for you.  The question that I ask, and I suggest be asked, is “What do I want to be able to do?” and you need to be very specific.  “What is it I want to be able to do?” Do I want to be able to shake hands like Bill Gates, probably not, although if you want to shake hands like Bill Gates, that's what you want to model.  Maybe the answer to my question is “I want to be able to negotiate in a meeting the way Bill Gates negotiates in a meeting.”  Well, then that's what I'm going to model and recognize that will be one ability he has in the pantheon of abilities that he has, that we call, you know, being successful Bill Gates. 

Harlan:  When you've modeled someone, how do you know you did a good job of Modeling?

David:  Well, you certainly don't know by what you have on a piece of paper or what you have in your interaction.  The only way you really know, whether or not, you got the model, is in trying it in the real world, that's the test.

Harlan:  Wow! Now, David, you actually have a book on Modeling that is very soon to come out.  Does it have a name yet?

David:  No. [laughter]

Harlan:  OK, first when you see a book come out with no name.

David: ...the book with no name. [laughter]

Harlan:  There was a horse that way that had the same name.  But, it is coming out and I've been emailed an advance copy of the book and, folks, this will be a book that's worth getting and since I have everybody's email addresses with your permission, I'll send you notice when it comes out and how you'll be able to get it.  And David is doing something that's really unusual with the book, a suggestion that I gave you, what's coming with the book?

David:  A DVD and on the DVD, there is a full, you get to watch a full example of my working with an exemplar to elicit, to do an elicitation, to elicit her ability.

Harlan:  What was the ability?

David:  The ability is the ability to be passionate about something and then that's followed by another segment where you get to watch me and my colleague refine the Model and make it more specific and more true to the person's experience.  And the last segment of the DVD is a demonstration of me working with somebody else to help that person acquire the ability to be passionate.

Harlan:  So, Modeling now, really is, let's say if you're a teacher and there's some really difficult material and you find that one of the students in the class is really getting it and others are having difficulty, if a teacher could Model that student's understanding or the elements of it, they could be a much more effective teacher.

David:  Yeah, that's the idea.  The idea is, if this student is having difficulty, it's not because the student is recalcitrant and doesn't want to work, it's probably the case that, however that information is being presented to the child and how they are being interacted with, somehow is not congruent and useful for how that child is making sense out of the world.  So, one approach to education is to say, ok, let's first find out, how this child makes sense out of the world and then we can know how to interact with the child, how to present information to the child so that he or she can grasp it.  And, of course, the other possibility is that if we know, and this to me is actually more exciting, is if we know what are the patterns are that make it possible, for most any child, to understand a particular subject area, for instance, to make sense out of mathematics.  If we know what those structures are, then what that makes possible then is creating curricula that helps teach children how to organize your experience in a way that makes mathematics accessible to them.  Does that make sense what I just said?

Harlan:  Yes, it does.  Recalling history, you're involved, peripherally, with a project that has as its goal to be able to do that, to make learning easier, better, more fluent. 

David:  Well, yeah, actually, [laughter] that's true and I can't really talk about it right now but we are working on a, there are folks who are getting together to look at what are the fundamental patterns that underlie, both understanding and appreciating particular content areas, and the idea and hope is that, if we can identify those patterns, instead of just throwing a content area, throwing information at a child and hope it sticks.  We can, first, teach the child how to think and organize their experience in a way that fits to the content area so that when the information is given to them, they can take it on.

Harlan:  David, the people of all different levels on the call, some may have an experience or an exposure with Modeling and an NLP background, others are beginners, what are the first three things that I can do to begin Modeling others consciously, so that I could start moving towards doing it naturally and unconsciously?

David:  Ok, well, so, the things to do, what I would suggest doing, if you want to, develop yourself as a Modeler.  The first thing I would suggest is to mirror other people's bodies, mirror how they move, mirror their breathing, mirror their voice tonality, that is speak the way they speak, say the things they say, move the way they move, hold your body the way they hold their bodies, and so on.  And then, feel what it feels like, pay attention to how it changes your experience, not only how you feel but what do you start thinking about, how does it start changing your thoughts, where do your thoughts go, what do you find yourself paying attention to when you start matching your own body and tonality and behavior to somebody else's?  That to me is the first step in learning to Model.  Another thing you can do is to make distinctions in your own experience and just as you go through your day, pay attention to what's going on in your experience, the things you're noticing, what you're feeling, where your thoughts are going and, for instance, you find yourself thinking about the future, are you thinking a lot about the future, just start making distinctions about where your attention is and what's going on in your experience.  And then, this is the important part, then change on of those distinctions.  So, if you find yourself lost, all I'm doing is sitting here thinking about the future, change it so you are only thinking about the present and find out when you change one thing in your experience, how it affects the rest of your experience, that is now I move from thinking about the future to thinking about the present, how does that change how I feel, how does it change my breathing, how does it change my movement, how does it change what I'm thinking about and what I'm noticing around me.  That will teach you a tremendous amount about how the structure of experience works.  And, I think, the third thing I'd recommend is you put yourself into alien situations, nothing dangerous of course.

Harlan:  And nothing to do with space.

David:  [laughter] Well, in space I would love to do that but, if I have the opportunity, I'd do it in a second, but put yourself into situations that are not normal for you, not usual for you and they may even be uncomfortable, even one's you have shied away from.  Put yourself in those situations with the intention of discovering how to be in that situation, you know, what do you need to be paying attention to, how do you need to be thinking, how do you need to be moving, what your behavior needs to be, in order to be operating in that alien situation in an appropriate way and that also will teach you a great deal. 

Harlan:  Fantastic!  Now, David, in your 30 years or so in NLP, what's been the single most significant Modeling work that you've ever done?

David:  That's easy.  Actually, it was modeling Leslie Cameron-Bandler.   In the early days of NLP, some of the people on the line may have heard of Leslie Cameron-Bandler, but she was also one of the originals of the group who created NLP.

Harlan:  Leslie's first book, which was later reissued, I think it's published as Solutions.

David:  That's right and she is also co-author of NLP Volume 1 and, by the way along with myself and Robert (Dilts), Leslie was the person responsible for creating the Practitioner and Master Practitioner trainings that are still going on today. 

Harlan:  It's kind of interesting she's been dropped from most histories.

David:  Yes, it is. One of the things that was remarkable, absolutely remarkable, about Leslie was she had the ability to know what was going on in other people's experiences.  Far better, more accurately, more quickly than anybody, any of the rest of us or anybody else I've ever experienced.  And one of the consequences of that was she was able to get people to do wonderful, wonderful work with people.  I mean, her therapy work was far and away the best any of us did and I wanted to be able to do that as well.  And what I discovered, what I realized was, that I was always on the outside of other people's experiences.  I was on the outside trying to figure out from David's perspective, from this disassociated perspective, you know, what was going on with them, how to pick them apart and figure out from the outside who was in there and how to fix them.  And, what I discovered instead, that Leslie was experiencing what their world was and then that allows her to know from the inside what the structure was.  So, you know, what we call that is, one of the things we call it, is stepping into experience.  She had the ability to step into somebody's experience and so I modeled that from her.  I learned from her, how to step into other people's experience and that was when everything changed for me.  That's when I found, truly, the ability to have an impact on other people therapeutically, to have an impact through Modeling because that is, to me, the basis of Modeling.  That Modeling is done from the inside rather than the outside.  And so, you know, for me that was far and away the most significant thing I modeled. 

Harlan:  A great question, which I really think speaks for many of the questions that people submitted, wanted to know about personal change and how could they improve themselves?  So, bottom line question is in simple, down to earth, laymen's language, David, how does one construct a belief in one's own self?

David:  A belief in one's own self.  Well, I assume that this person is not asking about believing that there is a self but believing in one self in the sense of that one is worthy, that one is meaningful, that one is valuable, I'll answer the question with that idea.  Well, I think, one of the most important things is to just know about people, about us, is that the world, both outside and the world inside each of us, is much, much richer than we know.  And what we are doing, always and necessarily, is always paying attention to the little bit of who we are.  So, given that I've said that, I think one thing to recognize, like somebody says “Well, you know, I don't believe in myself.”  I know that that person is only paying attention to those experiences that he has and have had that prove or suggest to him that he's somebody not worthy of believing in.  And I also know that within that person's world, within that person's personal history and experience, that there are tons of examples that demonstrate that he is somebody who's worthy; he is somebody who is worth believing in.  Now, I realize that folks on the other end of the line could be saying “You don't know that for sure”, well that's true, I don't know that for sure, but you know what, I'm going to, first of all it's my experience that most people do have these things and I'm always going to ask and approach them as they do, so, that being said, if I could get around to answering the question, I think the thing to do is if you want to have a belief in yourself.  The first thing to do is to recognize that you are paying attention to those things that suggest or indicate or prove to you that there is no basis for believing in yourself.  That, to me, is a very important step; it's that what opens up the door to anything else.  Once you've done that, then it's time to start searching through your past and through your ongoing experience, through a different set of lenses now looking for those things that suggest that you are, and it may be difficult to find, one of the things I would suggest doing is going to other people and asking them to open your eyes, open your eyes to things that you've done or qualities that you have that they see make you worthy, make you worth somebody believing in.  So, in a general, in mean, I don't know if I could go any further than that, to go beyond that, you're working with an individual.  And, I think, any work that I would do with anybody, would be doing that.

Harlan:  Fantastic.  Now, there are a lot of people who are going to have all kinds of questions and I'm going to invite them to email, a very special email address and I certainly hope that this is going to work, and that email is hypnosis@gmail.com.  If you have any kind of question that weren't answered, as much as we can possibly answer them, I invite you to email that address, hypnosis@gmail.com and we'll see what we can do about getting you the answers to the question that we weren't able to cover or that you wanted some more information about.  David, NLP has changed over the years and you were on of the first to this sense years ago, that it has lost its true calling, perhaps its essence, because it's focusing on some very old patterns.  People are teaching patterns from nearly thirty years ago, what should the fundamentals of NLP be that people who use it, practitioners and modelers, should be doing to practice and polish up and combine to generate new patterns of excellence? 

David:  Well, I think that the, well, what needs to happen is that the original intent and the original enterprise of NLP needs to be, I think, I don't know if the word is resurrected, but at least pursued, and that is exploring the structure of subjective experience.  Now, when I say exploring the structure of subjective experience, well actually, one of the questions that was asked is, I think, relevant to my answering your question here.  I have it here, so I'm going to read this briefly, and in part what this person said was “It is always said that in affirmations, we have to say them in the positive, for example when we want to be brave in a situation, we shouldn't say “I'm not afraid” because this will make us think of being afraid but I have experienced this to not always be true.  Sometimes, I say “I am not something negative and I feel positive” for example, my mother always tells me “Don't be afraid, honey” and her way of saying it makes me relax and really not be afraid, so how come?  Shouldn't I be afraid since she said afraid?”  Now, I thought this was I wonderful question, I love this question, because this person is saying “Hey, I've got an anomalistic experience, I've got an experience that doesn't fit with the party line.”  Well, this is the most important thing to explore right now, this is something worth exploring, I should say.  I think one of the things that happened to NLP and it happens to most pursuits and most fields, is that very quickly they start codifying their techniques and codifying their ideas and codifying their rules and that's what gets taught.  And what's no longer being taught is the thinking and the exploration that went into discovering those first rules and techniques and so on.  And so, I think, that for NLP to be renewed means people going out and looking for all the times and places and instances where NLP doesn't work or where technique doesn't work or where something that was considered a truth, isn't a truth for somebody else and because wherever you find a technique or tenant that doesn't hold or doesn't work, then you'll going to find something new.  If you explore what is actually going on there, you will then go beyond where you've been.  So, this means learning, of course, from the past, learning what we've learned but then not making them into sacred cows that have to be fed all of our grass, that we want to feed off of them and so, I suggest that if we want NLP to continue to fulfill the promise it has, which is the study of the structure of subjective experience and that means looking for all of the ways in that it's not working and learn from those.

Harlan:  David, before I thank you for your time this evening, I want to salute all those who joined us as we were chatting with some of the participates before the call, we have people on from all over the world, from New Zealand, from Greece, from Vietnam and other countries, I just want to salute you for taking the time and investing yourself and your thirst for learning by joining us on the call.  And second, David, it's been a pleasure to chat with you and get some insight into your mind and into Modeling, into NLP and Hypnosis, gosh, the time has really flown by.  Folks, as soon as, if some of you I heard joined us late or maybe had to hop of the call to take care of a baby or children, those things happen, as soon as the recording and the transcript are available, we will make these available to you in the future but I want to wish everyone thank you, thank so much for joining us, David, for all of you on the call, let's just wish you a good night.

David:  And I want to thank you all as well and I hope someday I'll have the chance to shake all of your hands.

Harlan:  And model how you do that.  [laughter]

David:  [laughter]

Modeling Tutorial Conference Call #1 with David Gordon

April 4, 2005

moderated by Douglas O'Brien

 

Doug: Watching the video and now just starting to get into the book, how would you best lay out what would be the most resourceful way for us to learn your Modeling until we meet with you in May?

David: Well, the first thing I would want you to do and I hope others who didn't get to see the DVD, get to see it, the first thing is to watch that elicitation. Just to give you a sense of the territory, pictures and sounds in your heads about kind of what it looks and sounds like to be gathering information in that way from somebody, so that's the first thing is to watch that, which you've done. And now, I think the next thing to do, academically speaking [laughter], is to turn to the book and start reading the book and what I suggest is reading chapters 1 through 11.

Joe: I feel like I'm back in college.

David:[laughter] It is kind of weird, I haven't had a book to refer to in this way before. Right, chapters 1 though 11.

Gerald and Joe: One through Eleven? [laughter]

David: One though Eleven and I don't want to hear any whining or complaining, [laughter] you've got plenty of time to complete your assignment. [laughter] And there will be a pop quiz, naturally. [laughter] And what goes on in those chapters, the first few chapters introduces you to actually a lot of the things we talked about in that first fateful day I was with you all. It kind of introduces the framework and the basic underlying frames for doing Modeling. What I really what you to get into, of course, is the Array and the distinctions in the Array. In the chapters, I guess it's four though eleven, go into some detail about those distinctions, so in those chapters are describing the distinctions and giving examples of elicitation, both ones that are taken from other people and examples of elicitation taken from the DVD that you saw. So, that's where I would take the next step in terms of just getting information. Now, what's going to be interesting for us all is that what's covered in those first eleven chapters is what I intended to cover in those first three days I would have been with you all. So, this is going to be an opportunity us to find out how well the book imparts the information and I'll be really interested to find out, maybe I don't need to be doing that and that would be fine.

Joe: I would rather have you than the book.

David: [laughter] Oh, there's an apple for the teacher. [laughter]

Joe: I don't need to read the chapters, you can just give me an "A" on my pop quiz. [laughter]

David: You know, obviously, there are things that we are going to be able to do together that you're not going to get from a book but it will be interesting to find out how much you can get from the book. But in any case, that is where we are and that is what I want you to do, to read those chapters.

Gerald: I'm curious, how many of these courses have you taught; like you're doing a piece and then you're leaving and then doing stuff in between?

David: Most of the Modeling courses have been that way. Oh yeah, almost all of them have been done that way, there's only been a couple of exceptions. Um, this is, I think, the way to do it because what it does is that it allows time for people to actually use what we've done when we are together in the real world and integrate what we've learned and then come back with what you've discovered and any questions that you have. But, we've never had a book before to use and a DVD, that's different.

Adam: David, my comment before was that the beauty of the difference in the time period is, that's the importance of having the study group and the teleconferences because it means that in that time we can work on the stuff you teach us and then we can come up with wonderful questions to ask you.

David: Yeah, and the one thing, that this particular seminar that we all are involved in has several features that have never been true before. One is, the study group, that has not been something that has happened before and it's a marvelous opportunity for people to learn because the fact is that you are only going to learn Modeling by doing it and so the more opportunities you get to do it the more you're going to learn and the faster you're going to learn. The other thing that has not happened before is what we are doing right now, that is it's not happened before that we created a venue for us to get together in between to answer questions and talk about whatever is on your mind about Modeling. So, I think, I'm hoping that between those things and the book and the DVD, you all are going to get far more out of this experience than anyone has before. I think that's inevitable.

Adam: Sounds good to us. David: So, what other questions?

Doug: The question as far as with the book and the study group is should we, as we get together, should we go though, say like chapter four and start doing that process, that particular chunk of material and practice that and then continue to the next chapter or should we just try to go through part of the whole Array as a whole?

David: Ok, my suggestion is to, for everybody who can get together, to do your best to read those chapters, up to chapter 11 before the study group and here's the reason, the rationale, what's presented in each of those chapters are the various distinctions in the Array and when you go to do elicitation, it's not the case that the person you are eliciting from, your exemplar, will be presenting you or offering you the information about their experience from just one of those distinctions. That is, they're going to be describing their experience in "T.O.T.E." (note sure if TOTE is correct) and if you have some familiarity with the distinctions, with all of the distinctions, then it's going to be easier for you to make sense out of the information they're offering, that is, when they give you an answer because you know about, for instance, Sustaining Emotions you'll be able to recognize that's rather than trying to shove it into the wrong box, does that make sense what I just said.

Group: Yes.

David: So, I do recommend that you read through those chapters before you start doing the elicitation and that when you do go for elicitation, you go for eliciting the whole Array. You'll find that easier to do than to do it piecemeal. Now, here's the one caveat, or exception to that, if you want to, you could just go for eliciting the Belief Template and just going for that chunk. It is such a, kind of coherent chunk of experience in itself that you can go for eliciting that by itself and you'll probably do all right and it still will be easier for you if you also have the strategy and the emotions and the behavior to elicit at the same time. But, if for some reason, in your study group you decide, "you know what, let's just concentrate on beliefs", that's ok, you can do that, you can just go for the belief template. And, if possible, I recommend just going for the whole Array.

Doug: Any certain chunk size that would be good to start with, as far as abilities, to be more specific, is that better or is it better to just be more general?

David: Actually, I think more specific is better. I think the more specific it is, the better. Particularly, at this size, what happens is as you get to the larger chunk sizes, what you're often dealing with is a whole set of abilities that is being treated as one ability and it would be more usefully broken up into smaller abilities and it becomes, it can become kind of a hornet's nest. Um, but, I'll tell you, so in general I would say, go for a specific ability that you can identify but right now at this level the main thing is to just be doing it. That is, to be exercising those brain muscles around "ok, what did we just get, is that a criterion, is that strategy, is that sustaining emotions" and if you have a specific ability, I think it will be easier for you to do that and to be on target but don't get to much in a swivit about "oh, we got to get to make sure this is really a small chunk". You know, somebody said, "ok, what's an ability you have, Doug and Doug said "Well, I have the ability to bring together the pieces that are needed to make something happen for somebody" I would say fine, let's Model that, that's good". I don't feel the need to break that down to any smaller chunk size.

Tony: I've been thinking about this and Doug and I were talking about this earlier, so then, it's got to be something, as we discussed at class, what we Model has got to be something that can be learned, done by anyone, and can be identified. Is this correct?

David: Yes.

Tony: So, for example, a guy goes to math class and he sees two problems on the board, he gets writes them down thinking they're homework, he goes home and solves one, comes back and tells the professor, "Gee, I couldn't get the other one" and they were example of problems that no one has every been able to solve in the history of Mathematics. I asked, we had a mathematician in our practitioner group and she said, "Oh, a lot of people have done that, they just didn't know that they couldn't solve it". Is that nothing to Model or is it?

David: I would say that's probably not going to go anywhere in Modeling.

Tony: Because it's not repeatable, it's not learned or done by anyone.

David: Right, in other words, it's probably the case. Well, to be honest, I don't know what's going on there but my intuition is that this is not, this is an event, this is an example of an event, it's not an example of an ability. An ability is something that a person can do again and again and again. Whenever they are in a context, an appropriate context, they can manifest that ability. So, for instance, if we are talking about math, if you got somebody who whenever they are given some kind of esoteric math problem, they typically have the ability to identify what's the quickest, easiest way to get to the solution, that's an ability.

Tony: Like over and over and over.

David: Right, if it's an event, you're going to be wasting your time Modeling them. Does that make sense?

Tony: Ok, and so like we had talked, I asked David a question about Ted Williams hitting a baseball, if you were to Model Ted Williams, the man had 20/10 vision so I suppose anything that related to that would not be a fertile ground for this but then there are many, many other things that he did that anybody could have learned

David: That's right.

Tony: Done by anyone, identifiable, repeatable within the context of going to the plate every time, so those would be the things to Model.

David: If we waived a magic wand over Ted Williams and then he had 20/20 vision that do you think that suddenly he would be a bad ball hitter, probably not.

Tony: But he wouldn't be as good as he was.

David: He may well not be as good as he was but there's probably a lot that is true about how he is organizing his experience and behavior when he comes up to the plate or when he's doing batting practice that would be tremendously helpful or useful for somebody else who wanted to become a good hitter.

Tony: In other words, it could be pretty much cut and paste anybody could use it.

David: That anybody could use it, yeah. Yes, indeed.

Doug: One of the questions was about the "Core Dump", and especially when someone is just starting to do the Array and they start to get a "Core Dump" and they have all these distinctions that come out at one time, what would be the way you would recommend for us to start with that?

David: Well, if you look at the book, first of all, you will not find "Core Dump" in there. We've moved on, [laughter],

Joe: Is it possible to define the term?

David: It originally comes from a computer term and it simply means "taking all the information off of the hard drive" and what we use to suggest was that the way to start was to ask you exemplar to tell you how they do what they do and that is to just let them go, let them just talk about how they do what they do and called that the "Core Dump". The reason that we did that was to provide kind of an opportunity to get a sense of what goes into this ability, get an idea of some of the distinctions, just kind of get a lay of the land. I'll tell you the reason that we stopped doing it was folks would get overwhelmed by it, not the exemplar but the person gathering the information. You know, there would be so much information coming out all at once that people often would feel responsible for understanding it and they would just get overwhelmed by it. So, we started experimenting with not doing the "Core Dump" and found it that it seemed to be much better. [laughter] So, I guess the reason you guys are talking about "Core Dump" is because somebody there remembers it from the past.

Doug: Yes, that's correct, from our practicing before the class. That was a distinction that we wanted to know what was different about that so, thank you.

David: So, let me say that I still like it, I do that because it does help me identify where I want to be in their experience, what I want to find out about so on, I just don't think that at this point that this is such a good thing for you folks to be doing, not until you're familiar with the distinctions.

Doug: Ok, excellent.

David: Ok, if you look in the book, on my copy here on page 27 on the chapter on the process, you'll see there is a description of the whole elicitation protocol and that's the protocol to use, that's the sequence to use. It's the same sequence that I follow in the DVD, I don't think I do a "Core Dump" on the DVD, right?

Doug: No, the question was if someone starts, when they are defining or offering all this information up front. That was just a distinction that we were curious about.

David: I suggest that you not make this a part of the process or the rule, that is we used to do that and now I'm suggesting not to do that.

Doug: Thank you, that's very important for us, thank you.

David: I didn't know, I'm sorry if I thought about it I might of realized you might still know about that and be operating off of that.

Doug: The other question is with when we are practicing together in the study group, would it be recommended to have one person do the elicitation and have the group watch or should we break up into groups of two or three and just start working?

David: I think to begin with, [laughter] what I really want is I want to be there with you, [laughter]. Here's what I suggest you do, there is a too many cooks phenomenon that can happen in gathering information, when you have too many people who are trying to gather information at the same time and each person, different people can take the line of questioning off in different directions and that can become a little bit hairy. However, I also think at this stage it's very useful to be working together so that you can help one another work through understanding what you're discovering in terms of the distinctions in experience. So, my suggestion is a couple ways to do this, one way to do it is to have one person doing the elicitation, that is one person who asks the questions, while everybody else is there but when that person finds a piece of information to stop them and talk about that with the rest of the group, did they get the same thing or not. And if they have a different idea about it, then you can talk about "how we should find that out", what questions can we ask in order to sort out what this really is, whether it's the criterion or the definition and then have whoever the person is that's working with the exemplar, that's the person who then will go and ask the question. It's kind of like that exercise that I gave you before where you ask the question and then talk about what you found out.

Doug: Yes, and that was a very good exercise, I'm looking forward to doing that next time we meet.

David: It is a great exercise. Well, you can do that with the whole group. The one thing you want to avoid is having the whole group asking the exemplar the questions. Instead, use the rest of the group as your advisors, they're your advisors, does that make sense?

Doug: Yes, very much so. Irene: Do you mean feedback?

David: Feedback and, for instance, I ask you a question and I say "you know what I just got from Irene is that what's important to her is to understand how to do things, what's the right sequence to do things, and so then I'll say that to the group, "Ok, this is what I just got from Irene" and then the group may go "yeah, I get that but some other people may go "well, wait a minute, that seems to me to be more her Motivating Cause and Effect", let's say, and then we can talk what kind of questions could I ask in order to sort that out, to identify is that Criteria or is that Motivating Cause and Effect. So, you help me with that, the group helps me with that, and then I ask it. This way, by doing this, you really as a group come to grips with what are these distinctions, you get to work together with how to identify them and come up with clever interesting ways to find the information out at the same time because you only have one person interacting with the exemplar, it doesn't go off into all kinds of wild directions. Does that make sense?

Doug: Yes, we like that very much.

David: Ok, I think that would be a very good exercise. Another kind of variation on that would be if you have two people in the group who have the same ability. Would be to divide up into two groups and do the same things we are talking about but, of course, you are doing it in two independent groups. So, you have a smaller group of advisors, instead of six advisors, you've got two advisors. Same thing but then what you can do later on, is you come back together, and you can compare the Arrays that you got independently from your two different exemplars and talk about what are the differences, how come there are differences and make sense out of those differences and discover where the similarities are, of course too. You will learn a lot from doing that.

Doug: On the nights that we have 8 to 10 people, that would be even better.

David: Yeah, that would be idea and again, you know, what you're Modeling, it can be anything in the realm of experience, it can be, ask the group who's here that is good at accepting criticism. [laughter] All you need is two people in the group that say "yes" or who here is good at letting go of the day's activities and relaxing. By the way, you can also go the other direction, who here in the group is not good at letting go of the day's activities. [laughter] and not relaxing, you can ask for two people that do that because again what's really important here in what you're doing together in the study groups and in the Modeling outside of the class as well, what's important here is having the opportunity to perceive these distinctions in somebody's experience and that you can do no matter what the experience is or what the ability is. That's the exercising that we are doing. Any questions about what to do in the study group?

Doug: Just to follow-up, what would be the best way to interact with you from our discoveries in the study group? To let you know what questions we came up with or is it better to email you some of the Arrays to discuss with you or both?

David: Well, I would love both personally, and what I would like, and Doug I'm not sure if something has been set up for this or not, if there is some way for us, for me to receive questions.

Doug: On the message board, ok.

David: That would be fine, however we do it, I can do it through email, I don't care but what would be great is if you gave me a set of questions, then I can give thoughtful written answers which then you all can respond to again with more questions or complaints or whatever. That would be great, also if I could see the Arrays, what you are finding out, I think I can give you a lot of useful feedback on helping make sense out of the distinctions that you are finding and perhaps pointing out some things that would be useful.

Doug: I do have the message board built, I'll give everybody the password and have that completed soon so that's up and running for everyone.

David: That would be great. I like giving written feedback because I can sit there for a little while and really think about how to say something in a conjunct and hopefully useful way.

Joe: It sounds like to me, again I don't fully understand this whole thing, it sounds like to me that we don't have to go out and find an exemplar on our own, we can just Model an ability in the study group.

David: Well, we've been talking about what to do in the study group, that's right, in addition to that, what I'd like you to do is to select something that you are personally interested to Model, that you would like to have for yourself and then, of course, find an exemplar and Model that person, that's something I would like you to do, again I think I told you Joe, you know, this is not school, we are adults and you can do whatever you want. You know, in terms of getting the most out of what there is to get here, that I think would serve you very well to do that and I'm hoping that everybody will do that. I think as I said in my email that I sent out, I would like to receive, I would like to get contact information from all of you so I could call you personally and just chat about what you might like to Model because I think that may be helpful, at least I hope that's helpful. Yes, I would like you to pick something to Model outside the group and if you don't want to do it, you don't do it.

Joe: For myself, I do want to do it but maybe things will be clearer as.

David: Joe, as I said, I think this is something for you and I to talk about. Send me your phone number and when a good time to call and I'll call you and we'll hash it out and hopefully I can help you figure this out and come up with something you feel you can get your arms around and also worthwhile for you to do. Ok.

David: What about from the DVD, folks? I realize that most of you aren't very familiar with the distinctions yet because you still need to read the book but where there any questions that you have from watching the elicitation itself?

Gerald: I have a comment, here are my assumptions, the woman that you Modeled, she's very experienced in NLP and how I came to those conclusions, her ability to access and make distinctions came very easily. She was a very helpful exemplar, how did you choose her?      

David: Well, actually, she's not very experienced in NLP, [laughter] she is a gift from God because I had just met her. Basically, how it happened was in a group of people and I said, I'm looking for somebody who has the ability to be passionate about things, "does anybody here know of anybody like that?" and everybody pointed at Kendall and said "she does". [laughter] That was the first time I met her and so I asked her a few questions and I got convinced right away that was true and she became the exemplar. She does have a little bit of NLP training but not very much. She's just naturally one of those people who is very expressive, she is very self aware and spends a lot of time thinking about her own experience. So it's easy for her to talk about her own experience and that made her, fortuitously, I think, a good demonstration exemplar.

Gerald: Yeah, she could sort through stuff and then choose parts of what she was going to say to you and really lay it out there. There reason I brought this up, one of the things we discussed, we thought "ok, this is too easy, she's just laying it out, what would it be like with someone who is an example but doesn't sort through their experience". One of the things that what it tells me too is that I can look for multiple people and

David: Absolutely, you can. It is the case that there are some exemplars that will be easier to work with than others for the very reasons that we just talked about. An exemplar who is not use to thinking about their own experience and being aware of it and is not articulate about their own experience is going to have more difficulty but I absolutely assure you that is not, not a disqualifier, it is not a barrier in Modeling this person. It does mean, it may mean that you need to do a little more work in terms of helping the person get access to their experience, that's what it really means, helping them get access. One of the nice things that you will discover when you do Modeling is that, and I have found this every time including with Kendall, because one of the things you don't know is, of course, my time with Kendall, I worked with her twice as long as what you saw, I cut out a lot of stuff [laughter] but one of the things you will find with every exemplar you work with is that, very quickly, they become educated as to how to be an exemplar, that is they start learning from you, from the kinds of questions that you ask and how you help them. They start learning how to think about their own experience, how to access what to pay attention to. And you will find, I'm absolutely sure of it, that when you work with an exemplar, that as you go through the elicitation, it gets easier and easier for them and they're start telling you what you need to know before you even ask it sometimes. [laughter] Because the already pick up the patterns and they know where you are going and I'm sure you will find that. So, that is true, she is particularly good but don't think that's a barrier, that you have to find someone like that, you do not. It just means you need to be a little more patient and help your exemplar learn to pay attention to what's going on in their experience. Ok? By the way, I glad you thought it looked smooth because we had been concerned, Kendall's actually was a pretty difficult elicitation, primarily because of her strategies being, you know, kind of complex and divided up into those different parts. I thought she was pretty complicated for an elicitation, thank goodness she was also articulate and knew herself well. Otherwise, it could have been a nightmare. [laughter]

Adam: In watching the DVD, I was curious to know that while you are doing this and obviously you've been doing this for so long, it's second nature for you at this point, do you find that when you are writing things down, as you were on the board, that you may of missed something as she was talking, how do you kind of, I noticed when I was watching you as was paying quite a bit of attention to her, just movements and body gestures and tones in her voice, how do you maintain it all and yet also write it all down?

David: Ok, first of all, I don't write everything down, I only write down that which I, for whatever reason strikes me as significant or possibly significant or meaningful, secondly I'm always watching her, even when I'm looking at the board and writing, I keep, out of the corner of my eye, always watching her because she's always going to be giving me information, even as I'm writing things on the board and she's, for instance I'm writing something on the board and out of the corner of my eye, I see her stop, I can see her going inside thinking and I can see an objection coming up or some other alterative and I'll stop writing. [laughter] Because I know, she has more to say or she's going to contradict what she said and I'll come back to her and wait because something's happening. For instance, another instance, I'll be writing something on the board and she's looking at that and one of the things I'm looking for is, as she sees what I'm writing, is she agreeing with what I'm writing? Do I see her nodding, smiling, you know, all of those little cues that suggest that I've got it, what I'm writing up there resonates with her experience. So, I'm always looking at her, even when I'm writing and I think that's important. The other thing I want to say about that is: I do miss stuff, I do miss stuff, [laughter] and you will too. [laughter] Everybody gets to miss plenty of stuff, the good news about missing stuff is that you never miss it forever, that is when we are Modeling, what we are after are the patterns of this person's behavior and experience. If it's a pattern, then it's something that will always be there or keep coming back again and again. So, if you happen to miss something for whatever reason, you didn't recognize it at the time or you were busy writing something on the board or you were lost in your own thoughts, it doesn't matter. If you miss something, I guarantee you if it is a pattern, a significant pattern, it will come back again and again. You will have other opportunities to catch it. Ok, so yes, do be attentive, you know, use all the things we've learned in NLP about calibration and all the other stuff and be attentive but don't get yourself into a twist about having to catch everything, that's not the case.

Doug: For the new people that have no NLP training and don't have that concept of rapport, how important is that for them to either learn about that or what would be the best way to help them communicate and interact better with the exemplar?

David: Alright, you guys ready, I'm going to give you my rapport spiel now, and here it comes: [laughter] The single most important aspect of rapport is being sincerely interested and curious about somebody else. If you are sincerely interested and curious about who somebody else is, I guarantee you will be in rapport with that person, that will happen. You don't have to worry about anything else, matching predicates and all that other stuff, you don't need to worry about it. The only thing that you really need to be is genuinely interested in who this other person is. If one of those experiences that we rarely get to have, that is have somebody be as interested in us as, for instance when somebody is being Modeled, and what you'll find is that when you Model somebody, if you approach it as we are approaching it, that is from an orientation of being really interested in and curious about who this person is and how they do what they do, within seconds or minutes you will be in rapport with that person. Now, I do think there is a period of time where being free to be interested and curious develops, that is right now for a lot of us, we're going to be worried about, you know having our attention on asking the right elicitation questions and getting the right distinctions and so on, so there's this learning period where our attention is so much on the nuts and bolts that it might be a little less attention paid to the person, the exemplar herself. But, as you become more familiar with the distinctions and the elicitation process, you'll find that you will be free, much freer if not totally free to really to put your attention on the person and they will feel that, they will feel that and you will be in rapport with them. This is one of the reasons why your study groups are so wonderful because it gives you the opportunity with one another before you go out into the real world with the unsuspecting exemplar, to work with other people in the same stage you are, that is the stage of coming to grips with the distinctions and the elicitation questions and so on. But, I think you'll find that once you start to come familiar with that, you will be freer to really attend to this other person and once you do that, you'll be in rapport. So, I don't think there's any need to go into and teach these people about rapport. I think it's something that's going to be a natural consequence of what we are doing and going about doing. Ok?

Doug: Ok, excellent. Thank you. Another question that came up was about the difference when eliciting a Model that's going to be presented to teach a group as opposed to doing a Model that you just want to take on an ability yourself. Are there any distinctions that are different between doing one or the other? One the Model is written or is it all the same and it's just the way it's acquired that's different?

David: Oh no, it's a whole different kettle of fish when you are talking about presenting a Model to others. This is a little bit of a big topic and I think a little early for us to be talking about it. Let me see if I can say something simple about that. Think about it this way, when we are Modeling, we're Modeling with an understanding of the distinctions that we are using; criteria, strategies and so on. So, we have a foundation or basis for making sense out of the patterns that we are discovering as we do our Modeling, when you go to a group of people and you Model, let's say the ability to get the attention of a classroom full of kids, let's say that, if you want to teach teachers that ability, you can't go up to, you know they're not going to know about the Array, they're not going to know about all these distinctions, they don't mean anything to them. What you want to do with the group instead is to take the patterns that you discovered that are essential for the ability and think about "how can I make these patterns accessible and understandable to these people who have no background in Modeling, have no idea of these distinctions" and I'm not going to teach them the distinctions, we don't want to do that. So, that's a different way of, that's a whole different kettle of fish.

Doug: Thank you for explaining that briefly.

David: Yeah, we will talk about that but, right now, let's just put our attention on the Array, understanding the distinctions and learning how to get out the patterns, identify the patterns and then later on we can talk about, alright, now how do we make this experientially accessible to other people.

Gerald: When we do get to the point, design of experiences, one thing I've gotten very good because of consulting in my job, I get paid to find out what other people think and do well. A vision strategy, that type thing and what you said, the ability of how to have people experience, how you chunk it, is something that we have to do, at least in my business in terms of how I sell products and services and I'll be glad to share my thinking and strategies.

David: Absolutely, you better. [laughter] You don't want to get a bad mark. [laughter] No, that's wonderful, I'm glad to hear that, I think that's wonderful, we'll pick your brain.

Gerald: Good.

Doug: Any other questions from anyone?

David: Well, I suspect that when you get into the actual distinctions, you know, sustaining emotions and criteria and motivating cause effects, then I suspect we'll have a lot of questions about what those things are and how they operate. So, maybe that will be what we get into in our next conversation.

Doug: Ok, Thank you so much David, it was very beneficial tonight. We really learned a lot, thank you.

Gerald: Thanks for making this happen.

David: Oh, thank you, you all make it happen. We all made it happen. [laughter]

Modeling Tutorial Conference Call #2 with David Gordon

April 24, 2005

moderated by Douglas O'Brien

Doug: The example that came up in the beginning of study group was the example that you had spoken to Adam about refining his ability of speed reading to more, well, as far as how David refined your ability and that David stated about having the preference of finding an exemplar that is an athlete that can also comprehend what they're reading very well and one of the questions that came up was "how do you find an exemplar with those specific abilities?"

David: Ok, well there are several ways to find exemplars. One of the ways that is happens often is that, just as we move through our lives, we just happen to meet or know somebody who has an ability that impresses us or that we would like to have ourselves and there you have it. There is your exemplar, if you are looking for somebody and you don't have an exemplar, I think the easiest and fastest way to find one is to just start asking people if they know somebody who has that ability and you'd be surprised how quickly you will find exemplars by doing that. You ask somebody "Do you know of anybody who has that ability?" and if they say know then the next thing to ask them is "Do you know anybody who might know somebody who has that ability?" I think you'll find that within one or two steps you'll going to find a referral to somebody who has the ability you're looking for. Then, of course, you still have to, you know, meet that person, get some experience with them and satisfy yourself that they do have that ability you want. In terms of finding people, I think that's the quickest way. Now, Adam, I suggest you do the same thing but, of course, as we talked about, we're looking for, for you, somebody who also operates in a particular realm of life, there are particular areas or realms of life that they are familiar with and comfortable with, that is they are into sports and not just watching sports, they're into playing sports. [laughter] So, what you want to be doing is, that's the segment of the population that within which you what to be looking for your exemplar, so if you don't know somebody already who is playing sports that has the ability, then ask your friends or people you know who do play sports, do they know somebody who is into sports and has that ability. So, that's what I would suggest doing, ok.

Doug: Thank you.

Tina: David, I was wondering, in regards to what you were talking to Adam about, and I'm not saying that he might have Attention Deficit, [laughter] In the case that someone did have Attention Deficit Disorder, [laughter] and they wanted to be able to read quicker and be able to retain the information more efficiently by reading with that physical, would you change your line of questioning to the exemplar or would you need to look for someone who has Attention Deficit Disorder and also be an athlete and also be able to read well and retain?

David: Holy Mackerel, [laughter] basically the answer, my answer anyway, would be your second choice, your second suggestion. That is, if I was working with somebody who had ADD and wanted to help them be able to focus their attention on their reading and have better comprehension as they read, I would definitely want, the first thing I'd do is try to find somebody to serve as an exemplar who themselves are ADD and learned how to focus on and comprehend what they are reading, that would be the best exemplar to get. The second choice would be, a little bit different way of going about it, but would be to perhaps find somebody who was successful with working with people who had ADD and helping them to read and comprehend what they are reading and Model that person and how they go about working with people who have ADD, to help them do that reading. Those are the two ways I would go about it but definitely, somebody who has ADD and you want to Model an ability from them, the first choice is to find somebody who is in that same experiential boat, [laughter] and that's the person I would Model.

Tina: That makes a lot of sense and to expand on that a little bit, I mean I could be talking about anyone with any type of disorder, you know, depression or a lot of issues that people have.

David: Yes, absolutely, for instance, a humorous example that I have faced for thirty years now which is, you know, those of you who have seen me know that I am on the slender side, [laughter] so, I have had for thirty years, people coming up and wanting to Model me for how to stay thin. Well, that's a waste of time, I'm not the person to Model for that because there is nothing I do to stay slim, I'm a freak on nature in that regard. So, there is nothing you're going to learn from me about losing weight, instead a better exemplar would be somebody who was overweight and loss weight and kept it off, that would be a better exemplar than I would be.

Tina: That makes sense, someone who has had the experience and went through the process.

David: There's nothing I do in the structure of my experience to stay thin. My parents blessed me with a bunch of brown fat cells, apparently, or something, I don't know what it is. [laughter] It's just one of those things that David's got nothing to do with, you know, it's a genetic thing.

Doug: Thank you. The next question was: Tony was working with a gentleman this weekend and just practicing the Array and the ability was how to troubleshooting alarm service calls and what he was getting was a lot of the how to, manual (book) type of answers. For example, when he asked him what was important about that ability, (the answer was) that the light stops blinking. So, what we were discussing in study group, does the, and we're not sure of, does the ability need to be refined or do we need to dig deeper into that question as far as what specifically they are looking for.

David: Well, so I could better answer this question if I had been there or had some more experience of how Tony approached asking the questions and setting up this person for it. But, let me just try the first things that occur to me and we'll see if they are useful or not. As a chunk size, what was the ability?

Tony: Troubleshooting alarm service calls.

David: Troubleshooting alarm service calls, so is this somebody sitting in a room somewhere and lights or alarms start flashing and they have to respond, is that it?

Tony: Yeah, this is somebody that has like 13 or 14 stores that he has put alarm systems into, he is the technician for his company on everything electronic or electrical and so, often enough, somebody will call and the alarm system won't turn on so the guy can go home. So, what do you do, well that's what we talked about and what I was getting was mostly this technical, you know, how to do kind of stuff that I have no more idea than a goat what he's talking about.

David: [laughter].

Tony: But, I found my notes, so let me read quickly, like for example, well what's important to you as you're doing this, as you're doing this troubleshooting these alarm calls, you're on the phone with a guy, what have you, what is important to you and the answer I got was this: "I want to be successful with this, I want to get the system up and running the way it was designed to be, to get the functionally back the way it was supposed to be and to do this in a minimum amount of time. Now, did I get the wrong answer?

David: Beautiful, OH NO, Tony you're on goal, you just don't know it. Where I would plant my flag as I think we have talked about or maybe you have read in the book, where I would begin is to go, ok the criterion here, what's important to him is to be successful, that's the criterion and then he goes on to beautifully describe what he means by being successful. Having the system up and running in a short amount of time as possible.

Tony: Some of the background to this that came out later on is that, at one time it used to be if the thing didn't work, he would have to get into the truck and drive three to four hours by the time he gets there and back from the shop and stuff like that, now he's got the technology, the software or all the gizmos and bells and whistles such that most of the time this can be done in 15 to 30 minutes, at most, on the phone with the store manager because he can pull up everything on his laptop and he can see all the cameras and whatever he sees on the thing, you know, and so now, it's much more streamlined, so when I asked him, "Well, why is this important to you?"

David: Why is what important?

Tony: What is the Motivating Cause and Effect that box there?

David: Yeah, I know that, but I need to know the question you asked because.

Tony: Well, basically, I just went through the little worded sheet. Why is being successful important.

David: Why is being successful important, ok, good.

Tony: So, what I got was, among other things, "Well, you know, I'm responsible for this, kind of like it's impacting another employee so he can go home, if I screw this up the police have to come, the company's going to get a fine, so this has to be done right, this has to be done correctly, it makes me valuable to the company so not only do I get a paycheck but I get to enjoy more of my life when I'm not at work because at which this happens at midnight on Saturday, or whenever, most of the time this can be done on the phone and with a laptop."

David: Alright now, would you say that all of that is motivating him to be successful? Because some of what he says there, as you described that and I try it on and I go "yeah", I get how that could be motivating to be successful. So, for instance, he talks about being responsible, so there's something about his sense of self, his investment in this, and he's got a sense of self that's in relation to other people, you know, (quoted from exemplar) "What I do not only impacts other people like my co-workers and it also impacts my life in terms of my having more freedom, more time to do the things I want to do." So I think that's in there, is his Motivating Cause-Effect. Then, when he goes on to say at the end, what did he say?

Tony: Well, it allows him, of course, to get a paycheck, makes him more valuable to the company; he gets to enjoy life more when he is not at work.

David: Yeah, and then you said he finished up with something. Some technical thing you add on there, anyway, that wasn't Motivating Cause and Effect, whatever it was. (because at which this happens at midnight on Saturday, or whenever, most of the time this can be done on the phone and with a laptop.")

David: I would pay attention to is as he is listing off all of these results or consequences of the work that he does, of being successful, what I would be paying attention to is where is the "juice", you know, as he is listing these things, some of them are going to be, "yeah, this is a consequence, that's all true," some of those things or maybe one of those things is going to have a lot of "juice" behind it. That is, it will have a strong analog, you'll hear it in his voice, you'll see it, you know, "yeah, I get a paycheck, it helps other people in the company AND I HAVE A LOT OF FREEDOM."

Tony: I was just going to say that going back in my mind that was "I get to enjoy life when I'm not at work."

David: There you go. That's it, that's the Motivating Cause-Effect. The other stuff, it's true, yes are consequences, yes he thinks about them and he knows about them, that's not where the "juice" is for him.

Tony: Ok, when I asked him the Sustaining Emotion and basically all I'm doing is reading off the little chart we got.

David: Good.

Tony: Dedication to job, sense of duty and I tried to ask it in as many ways that I could think to ask and that's basically what it came back to, you know, "I have a duty to do this and to do it right and I'm dedicated to doing this right," now is that a Sustaining Emotion?

David: Well, the part that could be a Sustaining Emotion is feeling dedicated and the other one that he mentioned, previously, that is very similar and it may be the same for him and a better way to talk about it is feeling responsible. I think, it's probably one of those or in that family of emotion; the Sustaining Emotion is the one about dedication or responsibility. Does that make sense?

Tony: Yes, that makes sense.

Doug: Are you, when he said about dedication or feeling are you assuming that he is feeling that or if they just say, you know, "Having a duty to my job or being responsible."

David: When he starts saying those things, then I imagine being him in that situation and hold in my experience that it's important "that my duty, that I have a duty to my job, that it's important to me to do what I'm here to do for various reasons" and I pay attention to how I feel. I just pay attention to how, you know, when I'm holding those kinds of ideas and those things are important to me, how does that affect my emotional state, what happens to my state, how do I feel and I feel a sense of responsibility. I feel a strong sense of responsibility and what I would do is, first of all, he has used that word once, at least, so, you know, this is not a surprise but if the person isn't using a word or words to describe their Sustaining Emotion that fits or that's obvious, then I will just give words to what I'm feeling. I'll come back to him and say, you know, the feeling I get is, when I step into what you are doing there, is that I feel deeply responsible. That's all you need to do, you just put that out and what will happen is your exemplar, this guy, he'll almost certainly do one of two things, he'll either go "yeah, that's right, that' what it is" or he'll go "no, that's not quite what it is, it's more like this" and then he'll correct you and he'll give you what it is. I think maybe I've talked about this before, I know we talked about it in the book somewhere, about offering feedback to your exemplar about how your own experience is affected when you step into their ability. What that does is really helps them identify what is going on in their own experience because it gives them something to compare their experience to and either it will be a match, which is great, or because, you know, what happens is when somebody tells you what your experience is and it's not true, it right away, by contrast, forces you to notice what is true for you. Does that make sense? I hope it makes sense to folks and even if it doesn't, try it. [laughter] Because I think you'll find that it's exactly the way it works.

Tony: What I'm editing out of all this is all the technical stuff that I had to go through to get to what looked like a Model to me. [laughter]

David: You've got it, you're doing great. You got out and you got that stuff.

Tony: Ok, because under Enabling Cause and Effect, I said "Well, what makes it possible for you to do all this?" and, of course, because I've read all the manuals. Then I asked "What made it possible for you to read all these manuals?"

David: Ok, now, so, about the question you're asking.

Tony: Ok, so now what I got was "I've always been fascinated with electricity, I think of this as something simple to do, it's logical, it's based on logic, there's no mystery, and it's understandable."

David: Ok, now, [laughter] we got to go back because there's this little tiny thing that you've done in asking your question that makes all the difference in the world. I'm going to guess, assume, that the way you asked him, what's his name? I guessing that the way you asked, Ron, is the way you just.

Tony: Well, not really. I mean, I tried to be gentler about it. I tried using a softener, "Ron, I'm curious, like I wouldn't be reading all these things, what makes it possible for you to read all these things?"

David: Exactly, that's it, right there! So, I'm going to ask the group "What is it about the way in which Tony just asked that question that has lead Ron and him astray?" There's something in how he asked that question.

Tony: Because I said "I wouldn't read those things"?

David: What in that question is leading him to give him the information you don't want. So, here's the thing, there is one word in the question that Tony asked that is leading you all astray, I think.

Joe: Is it possibility as opposed to enable, it seems to me that possibility is a much broader term.

David: No, it's the word, YOU. When you say, try the difference between saying, how it affects you differently when I say "What makes it possible for YOU to succeed?" and "What makes it possible for SOMEONE to succeed?" or for there to be success. "What makes it possible for there to be success?" as compared to "What makes it possible for you to succeed?"

Doug: There's a big difference.

Tina: It makes me feel like I have to defend myself, almost, to explain myself.

David: Yeah, it's a huge difference and it's very easy to, kind of, put it into that form but it makes a huge difference to take out the YOU. If you think about it, you know, what we're after with the Enabling Cause-Effect or all of the Belief Template, what we are after finding out or identifying are beliefs, generalizations, abstractions about experience and so we are not after the nuts and bolts, that's the strategy, we're not after the "how to" part, we're after what are the underlying beliefs that drive the "how to". So, when we ask the question, we want the question to also keep the person kind of at that level of abstraction, the level of generalization. When you say to the person "What makes it possible for YOU to succeed?", you're taking them right into their strategies. Does that make sense? Then say "What makes it possible for there to be success?" or "What makes it possible for someone to succeed?" something like that. It helps keep it at the level of generalization of the level of beliefs.

Tony: I see, because one of the things, like I had to wade through all the technical, "how to" jargon and stuff like that, which I've not a clue what he's talking about.

David: Right, well, you've brought on yourself. [laughter]

Tony: Because I realized as I'm doing this, you know I'm sitting there thinking, you know I'm doing something wrong. It's not supposed to sound like this.

David: [laughter] Tony, let me tell you something, you were doing the right thing, just at the wrong time. [laughter] You were in the wrong box, you weren't in the box you thought you were in. [laughter] So, there's useful information or it could be useful information but, you know, one of the things we are learning here is what are these distinctions so that we can recognize when this person is describing their experience, "Oh, he's not giving me, he's not telling me about his beliefs now, he's telling me about his strategy, he's telling me about how he does something, that's over there in another box. By knowing that, that helps us keep from getting lost in the information and it also gives us choices. We can go, "ok, Ron is now into strategies, let's move over there and start finding out about his strategies and we can come back to his beliefs later on because right now he's into strategies." Alright, so that's something that you'll just become more familiar with as you have more experience with it.

Doug: Very good and just to wrap up, David. Is there anything you'd like to mention about people finding the abilities that they would like to Model?

David: Yes, so I think as I understand it, Doug has sent all of you copies of my written answers to a slew of questions that people had.

Doug: Yes.

David: Great, so I hope you all get a chance to read those. Now, I have talked to a few people about what they would like to do as a Modeling project during the course of the seminar and I have not talked to everyone yet. So, I encourage all of you to call me or write to me about it so we can talk. You know, I'd like to have an opportunity to talk with each of you about what you'd be interested in Modeling. So, please do that.

Doug: And our outcome is, correct if I'm wrong, is to have everybody to discuss this with you before we meet in May again, correct?

David: Well, that would be nice but it's not necessary. If I don't talk with you before then, then I'll talk with you when we get together in May and if you don't want to talk with me, we'll never talk. [laughter] That's ok, too. You know, this is not a requirement, it's just one of those things that I hope everybody will do because I think it's an important part of you're getting your arms around Modeling.

Doug: Well, thank you so much for taking the time with us tonight, David.

 David: Well, it's a pleasure, thank you.

David Gordon on NLP and Modeling

November 9, 2005

Interviewed by Douglas O'Brien

 Doug:       We have with us David Gordon, author of several books on NLP and Ericksonian Hypnosis, including Phoenix, Therapeutic Metaphors, and his new book on Modeling co-written with Graham Dawes entitled, Expanding your World: Modeling the Structure of Experience. We're honored to have him with us this evening. Welcome, David.

David:      Well, Doug, I have to apologize.  My voice was getting much better today and then, as the evening approached, you can hear, it's gotten weird again.  So, I'm going to talk and I'll just have to sound like an old geezer or something.

Doug:       Well, maybe we'll just pretend you're Milton.

David:      There you go.

Doug:       You're just channeling Milton.  Well, would it be all right with you if we talked some NLP before we got into doing some...

David:      Whatever you want, we're just talking.

Doug:       OK, I want to talk about lots of things that I'm curious about from you.  I know that you've been around NLP since, well, was it before it was NLP?

David:      Yep.

Doug:       Can you give us some background about that because most of us don't know about those days?  So, where did you start with it all and how did that happen?

David:      Well, let's see, this must have been 1972, I believe.

Doug:       Wow.

David:      It was '71 or '72, but I think it was '72.  I met Richard Bandler who, at that time, was just starting some evening group in Gestalt therapy.

Doug:       OK, and when you say, "met him," how did you meet him, in a grocery store, or?

David:      No, no.  That's silly.  I met him in a bank.

Doug:       Oh, well, sorry.

David:      In fact, I met him in a bank where my wife was a bank teller.  She knew him as a customer, and he happened to be in front of me in line when I went to see Debbie.  She introduced us, and we talked for a little while and he invited me to join a new group he was starting that evening, in teaching Gestalt therapy.  It sounded interesting and he seemed interesting, so I went.  He was conducting two separate groups at that time, and in one evening group he had John Grinder as one of his students.

Doug:       Grinder was a student?

David:      Yeah, a participant in the group, learning Gestalt therapy, as I believe Judith DeLozier was, I'm not sure because I wasn't in that group.  I was in the other group where there was Leslie Cameron Bandler - who became Cameron Bandler - and some other people who are still around or have fallen away.  Anyway, we spent, I guess, that year learning Gestalt therapy from him and doing all kinds of very interesting things.  At that point, he was already pretty familiar with work that Virginia Satir was doing in family therapy.  So, we were doing some of the things that he had learned from her. And, somewhere along in there, he and John put their heads together and applied John's knowledge of transformational grammar to looking at the work that therapists were doing, that Richard had been studying, in terms of their technique.

Doug:       And, at that time, it was Virginia Satir and Fritz Perls?

David:      Right, and somehow, what bubbled up out of that caldron - and I was not involved in making that brew, so I can't tell you, specifically - but somehow what bubbled up out of that caldron was the meta model.  Also, along about that time, Richard and John really started working together and started experimenting with all kinds of bizarre things.  Basically, what we did in those early days was we would get together with Richard and John, a group of us once or twice a week at Richard's house, and we would bring people who had problems or we would bring people who could do something interesting.  We would work with them and try and figure out how they did what they did, whether it was a problem or an ability, and then figure out either how we could reproduce it in ourselves, or how we could change it, if it was a problem. 

     Sometimes, Richard and John would have done a bunch of work with somebody and come in with some discovery of theirs and teach it to us, and we would experiment with each other.  It was a very rich period where, you know, we were young, we could do anything. We had these two guys who were telling us we could do anything and who were inspiring us to experiment with experience.  And so we, as a group and as individuals, discovered all kinds of things.

Doug:       So, you were experimenting with experience.  Now, when you say you were trying to figure out how they did those things, were you modeling people?

David:      Well, yes, although, we didn't call it that. It was nothing explicit at that time.  But, in fact, that is what we were doing.  You know, it wasn't until at some point later, gosh, oh, I don't quite know where in the process.  You know, these things are quite organic.  And also, it wasn't just one person. It wasn't me or one person doing it, it was going through the process, it was a group that was interacting. And, so, it's really hard for me to say exactly when the notion of modeling - explicit notion of modeling - kind of came to the surface.  I don't really know when I would say that happened.  But, I can tell you, in those early days, it was certainly nothing that was ever talked about or recognized explicitly, at least by any of us participating.  But we certainly were doing that, we were doing it in an informal way, but we were certainly doing it.  We were trying to figure out what's the structure? That's what NLP is about, what's the structure of experience here?  And, we were trying to figure out what is the structure here and how we could describe it.  That is the enterprise of modeling.

Doug:       So, where does that term, "modeling," come from, as far as you know?

David:      Well, it certainly doesn't come from NLP.  I mean, it pre-dates NLP, certainly.

Doug:       How did it come into NLP?

David:      I don't know.  You know, Doug, I really don't know. It kind of appeared one day.

Doug:       Prior to it being formalized as NLP? Or, was it after that?

David:      Let me think.  Formalized as NLP...I think it was, I think it did come in before it got formally named as NLP.  But, I don't really know. I'll bet the person who could answer that question would be Robert Dilts.

Doug:       OK, we'll have to ask him, then.

David:      Yes.

Doug:       For me, when I learned NLP years ago, and this was, you know, a good 15 years after you started with Richard, nobody really taught modeling.  Everybody talked about modeling, used the term pretty loosely, actually.  There were models of this and models of that, Milton models, meta models, all kinds of models and people talked about models.  Tony Robbins changed it, ultimately, to role modeling, or something like that, I'm not sure.  But, nobody really taught it.  I mean, what is it, and how do you come to be doing it now?  I mean, you've just released a wonderful new book called, "Expanding Your World."  It's all about modeling.  Is it sort of explicitly what you did back then, or what...?

David:      No, no, it's explicitly what I do now.

Doug:       OK.

David:      Of course, it is an explication or, I guess you would say, it's a model of a lot of what, at least, I was doing then.  But, I think one needs to be careful in talking about modeling and be clear about kind of what level you're talking about modeling.  You know, there is the underlying process or enterprise of modeling, right?  Let's call it the enterprise of modeling, which really, you know, I think is the same, no matter what approach you're taking or who's doing it.  And, that is, you are constructing some kind of description of the structure of someone else's experience, with the intention of having that structure operate in you or in somebody else, be useful in you or somebody else.

     Now, the form that that description takes could be very different.  You know, the description could exist completely as nothing but body sensation and could have no language attached to it, whatsoever.  Although, of course, you can't talk about it, then.  Or, you know, the description could exist in content, as a content description, which much of the model that I do does.  But, the nub of it, I think, to me, somebody's doing modeling when they are identifying in some way, pulling out in some way, this structure that is significant or essential to manifesting or producing a particular experience or behavior.  That's modeling.

Doug:       OK.

David:      And then, you know, different people have different approaches for doing that.  So...

Doug:       We, in...I don't know, the second or third generation NLPrs, I don't know where we are, but I wasn't there, obviously, back in the 70's with you and Richard and John and all those people. But, we sort of look back on those early days as, you know, just wacky, wild, crazy, anything goes kind of stuff, where people were doing modeling by deep trance identification and, you know, it wasn't nearly as, I don't know, codified or explicit as it is now, certainly with your experiential array, etc.  It's kind of like they just became Erickson, as an example or somebody else.  They did everything they could to just deep trance identify with it and it was almost an unconscious process.

David:      Well, some people did that.  Some people were adept at doing that and some people were not adept at doing that.  We all experimented with that through and, you're absolutely right.  As I said, it was a period, it was a very rich period where, you know, we, because we believed we could do anything, we were not constrained in what we tried and what we went after.  And so, it was wonderful!  I mean, it was a wonderful period!  It was, my God, it was fantastic!  You know, we felt completely free to try anything that occurred to us to try, to delve into anything that grabbed our attention and you know, I think the one thing that unified what we did, or I have to think about it further.  I don't know if it's the one thing, but it's a thing that unified what we did, was that we were always after the underlying structure and that was the thing that I think set NLP apart, which was we operated out of this reality or this presupposition that whatever people did, whatever their experience was, whatever their behavior was, it was that it is a manifestation of, or an expression of some underlying structure that's operating in them. 

And, that if we know what the structure is, we can alter that structure and either affect a change in ourselves or that person, or we can take on that structure, ourselves, and start manifesting those same kinds of abilities or experiences.  And, that is, to me, is what makes...gives NLP whatever identity it has in the world.  And, to me, without that, you don't have NLP, period.

Doug:       Without that implicit question?

David:      Yeah, without that, it's not NLP.  It's just not NLP.  You know, if it's not about structure, how structure gives rise to experience, then it's not NLP.  You know, so, it gets confusing the people and people ask, "Well, Dave, what is NLP?"  And, of course, and naturally, it's become associated with what I call the products of NLP, you know, all the wonderful techniques, and this and that, produced from discovering various structures and putting them in forums that give people access to those structures.  So, you know, I think it's also true to say that that is, also, NLP, you know? But, for me, what NLP was, to begin with and what attraction it has for me, is that pursuit of the structure, the structures that give rise to our experiences and behaviors.

Doug:       If I could just ask you kind of a specific example in modeling, if you were to...or, if I were, or someone were to try to model a golfer like Tiger Woods, or a sprinter, or marathon runner.  We just had the New York City Marathon here in New York a couple days ago.  Like, a marathon runner from Kenya.  What would be the value of finding out, you know the structure?  I mean, wouldn't you just need to learn how they swing their golf club?  Wouldn't you need to find out how they train to run that far, that fast?  I mean, if I find the belief systems of that Kenyan runner, I still don't think I could run 26 miles at five mile a minute pace.  I mean, I can't run one mile at five mile a minute pace.

David:      Well, one thing, and this is a very good point and it's something that a lot of people get hung up with, when it comes to the whole issue of modeling, which is that modeling doesn't turn you into that other person.  Modeling doesn't give you their body.  Modeling doesn't give you their personal history.  Model doesn't give you a lifetime of being who they are, operating with those structures and acquiring, you know, the thousands and thousands of little experiences that all weave together to support them in their ability.  So, it is, I think, inappropriate, to say the least, to expect that any amount of modeling, any amount of putting yourself in touch with somebody's structure, is going to imbue you with their ability. 

     What modeling does, is it gives you the framework or the structure upon which to hang your own experiences.  And so, the purpose, I think, or point of modeling right now, we're talking about modeling ability, OK?  It's a little different if we're talking about modeling in therapeutic change, but we're talking about modeling ability.  What you want to get...what I think one wants to get out of modeling is that framework that will allow me to approach that sport, approach running in the same way that this person who's very successful at it, approaches it, in terms of their thinking, in terms of their strategies, in terms of their behaviors.  You know, how do they approach it so that they do so well?

     My approaching it...of course, the assumption is that if I approach it the way they do, I will, then, have similar kinds of results, in terms of my running, in the example that we're using.  It's not going to give me his muscles.

Doug:       Right.

David:      It's not going to give me his fat muscle ratio and all those other things.  It's not going to do that.  It's not going to give me his lungs and all those things.  But, it can give me some things that make an enormous difference.  So, for example, you know, just to pull one out of the air, here, we've got one runner whom, as he's running along, you know, in the beginning of the race, what he's holding in mind, is how far he still has to go in the race.  That's what he's holding in mind, for whatever reason, for whatever reason, you know?  It's how he was raised, who knows?  God knows.  But, it's the structure he operates out of, when he goes running.  He's thinking, OK, I've only got, you know, 25 miles to go.  Now, I've only got 24 miles to go.

     Now, we talk to this Kenya runner, and we find out that he doesn't even think about how far he has to go, that what he's holding in mind, is how far he's been.  Or, let's say, what he's holding in mind is what he's feeling in his body right now. 

Doug:       Right.

David:      And, what's right around him right now.  And, he's not thinking beyond a few steps beyond where he is.

Doug:       Right.

David:      I don't know, I'm making this up because I haven't modeled folks like that.  Now, I absolutely guarantee you that if that first runner, who's thinking about the finish line all the time, if he starts thinking the way this Kenyan runner thinks, he's going to have a different experience.  Not only is he going to have a different experience, but because we are systems and there's no such thing as changing one thing in a structure without having it affect the whole system, that by just making that one shift in his thinking, it will start affecting other thinking that he does, it'll probably affect how he breathes, how he moves.  And, you know, it'll have all kinds of ramifications.

Doug:       Sure.

David:      So, I mean, the idea in modeling is not to give you the ability.  The idea in modeling is to give you the structure that makes the ability possible.  And, that's a huge difference.

Doug:       It is a huge difference, and you're also, talking about modeling the ability, not the person.

David:      Right, exactly, yeah.  You want to model the person?  Forget it.  I mean, that's a lifetime proposition...

Doug:       Right.

David:      That, ultimately, you will not succeed at.

Doug:       Right, gotcha.  And, how do you use modeling, you were saying, in therapeutic context?

David:      Well, an approach to therapy, you know, it's my approach and I think it's the approach that we certainly took in the early days of NLP and I know it's still taught in places, is to take the approach that, OK, for me to know what to do with you, you know, to helping you change, I need to be able to do what you do.  And, that's how we would know that we understood our client, is that we could do what they did.  So, what we would routinely do, is sit down with a client and gather information, and as we're gathering information, what we are trying to do in our own experience, is reproduce what they do.  So, if they're sitting there going, "Oh, you know, whenever I get to work, my boss starts talking to me in a certain way.  You know, I feel defeated and then, I fall into this spiral."  You know, what I'm going to be doing, is gathering the information I need, in order to step into that world of that client and have my own experience effected in the same way because once I can do it to me, then, not only do I understand the structure, but I can, then, start making changes in my own experience, to find out what do I need to change in this structure, in order to get the desired outcome.

Doug:       Right.

David:      And then, I use that, then, as a basis for knowing what to do with a client.

Doug:       So, therefore, like Erickson, every intervention could be very different because their structure is different than anybody else's, so where you intervene would be different, as well.

David:      That was the early...that was the ethos that we operated out of in the early days.  And, you know, to a certain extent, we became victims of our own successes, in that, you know, we developed certain techniques.

Doug:       Like, the phobia pattern became-

David:      Yeah, which, by the way, came from modeling...

Doug:       Sure.

David:      ...people who fixed themselves.  You know, and for instance, the changed history pattern came from a woman who came to the group.  She said...I don't remember exactly what she said, but basically, she said, "Well, you know, I don't have any problem with the past.  If anything happened to me bad in the past, I just go back and change it."  Oh, really?  Let's find out about that!  And, you know, so out of working with interesting people who did interesting things in their experience, techniques were created.  Well, they came to the forefront and they became what people learned to do to work with clients. 

And, you know, I think what got lost along the way was the whole approach of sitting down with a person and finding out, who is this person?  You know, what is the structure of this person's experience?  What is the world that this person lives in?  What kind of intervention would be meaningful or significant in that person's world?

Doug:       So, for you, then, it was kind of the evolution of that way of thinking that led to this new - well, for me it's new - this experiential array that you have in your book, the Expanding Your World book?

David:      Yeah, well, the array came out of...in 1988, when Graham Dawes and I were conducting, we were often, going around, doing the testing weekend in practitioner, master practitioner trainings and we were training in Belgium.  I guess it was practitioner training.  At any rate, people were, as part of their final thing, they had to work with clients.  And, they had to gather information and people would go gather information and Graham and I would walk around and ask them, "OK, so tell us about this person?  What's going on with this person?"  And, they would proceed to open up their notebooks and go through page after page after page of notes they'd taken.  They'd just written down everything the person had said and they thought just by repeating everything this person said, they were answering the question as to what is going on with this person. 

And, what we realized, of course, was that you know, these folks had no way to know, keep track of what information they had, what was the nature of the information?  What did it tell them about the structure of experience?  And, what was redundant and what wasn't?  And so, that night, we created this format and it's just an information gathering format for organizing information into different areas of experience and for keeping track of it and start using it, and found that not only was it extremely effective in helping people gather information in doing therapy, but we pretty quickly, tumbled to well, oh, this is a format for doing modeling of any kind.  And so, we started massaging it and applying it in that realm.  But, that's what it is, it's a format for doing the modeling, one of many that are out there.

Doug:       Is it still evolving?

David:      Well, I hope so.  I'll tell you what, the form of it is not evolving, currently.  It has, over the years.  Originally, it was just four boxes and now, it's got some boxes inside of boxes.  But, it's stayed the way it's been for probably the last four years.  What has evolved, however, is how we use it, some of the distinctions, how we use some of the distinctions, how we identify some of the distinctions that have evolved.  In fact, I'm currently doing a seminar, as you know, in New York, a modeling seminar, you know, and the people in the seminar have just, in the last two meetings, have come up with refinements to the approach, you know, in how we use the array, that I think are wonderful.  You know, they still have to be tested out, but my gut feeling is that, you know, these are really refinements.

     So, you know, I hope it will continue to evolve and you know, maybe someday, we'll come up with even a better...

Doug:       A revised edition of...

David:      Yeah, yeah, in life. 

David Gordon on Ericksonian Approaches to Therapy

January 2005

Interviewed by Douglas O'Brien

 

Doug:       We are honored to have David Gordon with us again.  David is the author of several books, Phoenix, on Ericksonian therapeutic patterns, Therapeutic Metaphors, and his latest book on modeling.  What's that called again, David? 

David:     Expanding your World: Modeling the Structure of Experience

Doug:       Right and we talked about that a bit last time and because of some technical difficulties, we have you with us again.  And just as much as last time, we're honored to have you here. 

 David:     Well, I'm very glad to be here. 

Doug:       So, last time, before we were so rudely interrupted by technical difficulties, we were just about to begin talking less about NLP and more about Erickson and his work which has, I think since his death, come to be known as Ericksonian hypnosis.  Was it prior to that known as Ericksonian hypnosis? 

 David:     I never heard anybody referring to his work like that before he died.  Well, let me think about this for a second.  Ericksonian hypnosis, no, actually I never remember hearing that phrase before he died.  The first time I remember hearing that was at the very first Erickson conference, which of course was after he died.

Doug:       So how did you come to work with Erickson? 

 David:     Okay, so here's where I'm getting on my soapbox. Because often, when  people talk about working with Erickson, there is at least a suggestion in that of somehow collaborating with or having some kind of  apprentice relationship with Erickson and so on which, boy, I wish I could say was true for me. But I want to be clear that I didn't work with him in the sense that somebody collaborates or is even in an apprenticeship relationship. 

I did get to spend two weeks with Erickson a couple of times, but in the same manner of relationship that most people did which was this: I was there with a small group of people sitting with him in a room as he told us stories. The first time with a mixed group, the second time was just a group of us from the NLP gang of Santa Cruz.  But in each case it was the same, we talked with him about his work in therapy, and he would work with us individually and do hypnosis and so on.  It was absolutely wonderful and an experiences of a lifetime, but I think it's a mis-characterization to say 'worked with him.'  I just want to be clear about that. 

Doug:       I appreciate that.  And when did you come to first sit in that room and listen to him. 

 David:     Yeah, we'll have to come up with a different euphemism.  Well, that must have been, the first time was in '76, I would say, '75 or '76.  The next time would be about a year later, maybe early '78. I'm trying to think about when Therapeutic Metaphors was published.  That was published before he died and that was '78, as I recall.

Doug:       Okay.  The first time, however, was not with the NLP gang? 

 David:     No. 

Doug:       So how did you come to be there? 

David:     Well, my entree there was through Richard and John. 

Doug:       Okay. 

 David:     Richard and John sent me there saying, "Okay, you need to go see this guy."  Of course, I already knew a lot about him.  In fact, as a funny coincidence, I actually knew about Milton Erickson before Richard and John did. When I was in college - as a freshman in college so this was in1969 - I was doing a paper on delinquency and I went to a Berkeley bookstore looking for books. There was this white clad book on the shelf and it jumped out because it was white and the title was Uncommon Therapy. I pulled it out and started looking through it and it was fantastic, so fascinating that I ended up on the floor reading through it and bought it, of course, and read it cover to cover a couple of times.

I was absolutely bowled over by the work that this man had done.  And then I kind of forgot about him and he ended up on my bookshelf for five or six years. Then all of a sudden, Richard and John are talking about this guy, Milton Erickson.  So that was kind of a secret joy for me. 

Doug:       And you were a psychology student? 

 David:     I was, yes.  Actually, originally I was a psychobiology student and I ended up killing a whole bunch of animals.  Early in my senior year, I got so overwhelmed by all the animals I'd slaughtered that I had an epiphany and changed my major to psychology.  Fortunately, within a matter of weeks from doing that, I met Richard Bandler and that gave me some kind of focus for my work because, at that point, all I was doing was graduating and I had no idea what I was going to do.  But meeting Richard Bandler in my senior year was a godsend. 

So anyway, Richard and John, of course, had already been studying the work that Erickson was doing and they'd introduced me in particular to his metaphoric work and said, "Here, run with this," which was easy for me to do.  I was very interested in it anyway and they said, "Well, you need to explore this."  So, I did and then they arranged for me to go meet with Erickson, which would have only happened through their intercession because, at that time and all times, Erickson wasn't letting anyone come see him unless they had advanced degrees and I did not at that point.  All I had was a BA. 

Doug:       Great.  So he made an exception for you because you were sent by them? 

 David:     That's right. 

Doug:       Well, thank goodness for exceptions. 

 David:     No kidding!

Doug:       Because that led ultimately to the book Therapeutic Metaphors, correct? 

 David:     Yes, it did.  I was actually already working on the book at the time I went to see Erickson.  Actually, what that trip and the subsequent trip led to was Phoenix.  That's when we gathered the audiotapes that Mary Beth Myers Anderson and I studied and used to model what he was doing therapeutically.  See, that was my introduction to Erickson.  My introduction to Erickson was not hypnosis.  My introduction to Erickson was his therapeutic work. 

If you have read Uncommon Therapy, which, of course, everybody in the world should read...  

Doug:      By Jay Haley. 

 David:     Yes, that's right, by Jay Haley.  There's almost nothing about hypnosis in there.  There is a great deal about his therapeutic work and how he engineered or created change experiences for his clients. 

Doug:       Right, that is actually one of points of focus for tonight. Now that we've got a little bit of background out of the way and people have a better idea of where you were in all of that, I'd like to begin by asking about the distinction between Ericksonian hypnotherapy and Ericksonian psychotherapy.  You know, how he actually intervened with people wasn't always through trance.  In fact, I would gather from the literature that I've read that it was only sometimes through trance. 

 David:     That's completely my experience and understanding of his work, too. 

Doug:       Okay. 

 David:     Now, I think we should also make a distinction between formal trance work and informal trance work. He was using informal hypnotic patterns a lot.

Doug:       Would you describe how he would do that? 

 David:     Well, for instance, if he wanted to get somebody to change their idea about something or take a certain stance, he would start seeding in ideas throughout his conversation in order to put that person's attention on that particular aspect of their experience. I think that probably a lot of people will know the lovely example of when he was working with Joe and doing formal trance work with him using the metaphor of planting tomatoes and tomato seeds.  He embedded in his description of all this planting all kinds of suggestions about relaxing and pain going away and things going through stages and so on. 

Doug:       I see.

 David:     He would do the same in conversations working with a client (or us as students who were sitting at his feet as well, as a matter of fact) as a way to seed ideas into this other person. 

Doug:       So could that be thought of then as what we might call Ericksonian language patterns?  Many of the people listening and others who will be reading this on the website will be interested in the language patterns and how Dr. Erickson would specifically seed those ideas.

 David:     Yes, he would always be using those language patterns.  And so one could, I think, justifiably say that he was hypnotic in his approach to interacting with people both conversationally, therapeutically, and then also - where it became obvious, of course - in the formal trance work that he was doing. 

Doug:       I noticed a lot of times with traditional hypnosis, if you will, that there seems to be a kind of format for a session.  In other words, a client will come in and the hypnotist will run through a particular format: First they'll establish rapport. Then it's on to information gathering. They will talk about the problem for a little bit and establish what they want.  Then they'll say, "Okay, let's do some hypnosis. Close your eyes and we'll count you down, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6," you know, "deeper, deeper, deeper" sort of thing.  And then they'll give direct suggestions, typically like, "Your eyes are getting sleepy.  You are now a non-smoker.  You hate the taste of cigarettes;  blah, blah, blah." That kind of thing.  And when they bring them out of the trance, they say, "Now go home and listen to this tape six times a day." Erickson didn't seem to have that sort of way of working. 

 David:     Right.

Doug:       In fact, from what I can tell from the videos that I've seen, books I've read, and discussions I've had with you and others, it seemed like he was sort of always on and that the moment you walked into the room, you know, trance and therapy and things were happening.

 David:     Yes, that was absolutely my experience, and everybody I know who went there, that was their experience, as well.  I got to be around him outside of that room as well.  I was very privileged to be invited into his home on a number of occasions and just be there with his wife, Mrs. Erickson, and him in the home and had some very nice social times with them.  And, you know, it was my experience he was always on.  He had a twinkle in his eye and I think he really just loved seeing what he could get people to do. I think it just gave him a lot of pleasure and he always wanted to do it in whatever subtle, long-way-around-the-barn he could. 

So yes, I think he was always on.  But I think the important distinction to make is that his hypnotic way of interacting with people, the language patterns he used, for instance, were not in service of putting people into trances, in my estimation.  They were primarily in service of orienting people towards the kinds of learning experiences and perceptual experiences that they needed, in order to re-orient themselves... in order to change, to put it in a very simple form. 

Doug:       Okay, let's talk about that.  How did he do that and how did he know to do that?  How did he make the distinctions of, you know, what to do with whom?  That's a simple question, I know. 

 David:     Yeah, how did he know what to do?  Whoa! 

Doug:       As an example, I know by from reading a book by Bill O'Hanlon, called Tap Roots, that there's a classic example of, for instance, the differences between traditional hypnosis and Ericksonian hypnosis, if you will use that term.  In traditional hypnosis, if a person came in for any given problem, it would, essentially, be the same format.  They would be put into trance, deeper, deeper, deeper, and then given direct suggestions.  So as an example, if a person came in to solve a bed wetting issue, they would sit them down, close their eyes, deeper, deeper, deeper, and say, "Okay, you will have dry beds from now on."  Or words to that effect. 

In Tap Roots, O'Hanlon describes three different scenarios with three different people and had three totally different approaches.  One that used like a task assignment, you know, he told the girl that she should practice stopping and starting her urination. You know, build up the muscle that way, and that worked for her.  I won't go into all the details of the stories for interest of time. 

 David:     Right.  There was a boy who had the drawing of a bow in his imagination.  I don't know if you remember that. 

Doug:       That wasn't in Tap Roots, but I know that story, as well.  The other two in Tap Roots was a boy who had also problems in school, so Erickson gave the mother the task of waking him up if the bed's wet...she checked the beds at 5 in the morning... 

 David:     Oh, yeah. 

Doug:       And if the beds were dry, she would let him sleep, and if it was wet, she'd wake him up and make him practice his handwriting. 

 David:     Right, right.  That's right, I'd forgotten.

Doug:       And then there was a third one where he just told an elaborate sort of story, the kind of thing that drew on the child's own experiences of being a baseball player, comparing it with his brother's gross skills in playing football. 

 David:     Right. 

Doug:       But he described all the fine muscle control it took to play baseball.

 David:     There are other examples.  There was a couple, in Uncommon Therapy, they both wet the bed.  And he would have them intentionally pee on the sheets, I don't remember the details - it's been a long time - but he'd have them both, you know, together, pee on the sheets before they went to bed.  Yeah, yeah, pretty wild, huh? 

Doug:       Indeed.

 David:     And, in none of these examples do I recall him putting a person into a trance and, you know, doing hypnosis, per se. Okay, so let's talk about this a little bit and see if we can sort this out. 

Doug:       All right. 

 David:     So, it seems to me that what Erickson did - I want to say does, I'll say does - is that he takes to heart, first of all, the observation or injunction that Gregory Bateson used to make which was you can't really solve a problem at the same level at which it exists.  That it needs to be addressed at a different level.  And so I think that what Erickson would do, rather than meeting this person head on, rather than meeting the client head on with their problems, he would consider, "Okay, what matters to this person?  What's the world that this person lives in?  What do they really care about?  What do they respond to?" 

So for instance, if we're talking about a little boy, you know, if you're a little boy growing up at a certain age, what do you care about?  What's really important to you?  Well, your body and being strong and being able to show that you can do things.  That's what boys are about. I think what Erickson would do is ask, "What's the reality of this person?  What's the world that they live in?"  Some of that is given by their age, because people go through different stages in their lives.  Some of that is given by their social background.  There are wonderful stories of how he would use people's social backgrounds.

Their education, what they're doing professionally, all of these things contribute to kind of the world they live in.  And then there's their psychological makeup.  And, you know, I think what Erickson would do is take each individual who walked through the door and ask, "Well, who is this person?  What's the world that just walked in the door here?  And what do they really care about?  What motivates them?  What's important to them?" I think that's what he would look for and use for his leverage to then motivate people to do things and to provide the foundation for changing their experience. 

And the way he would then go about doing that is by concocting some sort of (what I call) a reference experience, some kind of actual experience that would then meet their psychological needs and allow them to do something different, something that is in alignment with what they would really want.  So, this boy who is peeing in his bed, he doesn't want to do that. He really wants to not do that.  But he needs a way to, well, it can be different for different people, but he needs a way to understand it, accept it, and a way to interact with his own body that allows him to have what he wants or do what he wants to do.  I'm sorry; I just said a whole lot of stuff. 

Doug:       That's all right. 

 David:     You just feel free to stop me because I'll just run off at the mouth.

Doug:       That's what we're paying you for. 

 David:     Oh, okay...  Hey, wait a minute! 

Doug:       That's a euphemism.  Checks in the mail, really, trust me.

 David:     I'm sorry to be thumping the Uncommon Therapy book so often, but one of the wonderful things about reading that book is that, in case after case, it gives you an example of Erickson responding to the psychological and cultural and social background of each person as an individual, and coming up with a life experience that is in accordance with who the person is.  It doesn't come from the outside, it comes from the inside.  And the same thing is true - this is what really struck me in the early days - the same thing is true about his hypnosis work. 

Doug:       When he does metaphors especially. 

 David:     Exactly, and that's what I think is the thing that I don't want to be missed about his work, that he did not, as you said, he did not simply, I mean, there was a time when he did that, but he did not simply put people in trance and say, "Okay, now you're going to stop bed wetting."  He would put people in trance and use the trance as an opportunity to create experiences with and for the clients, as in the famous Maundy tape, for example.  You know, he gave her a vicarious experience, an experience that in trance had the same psychological gravity, the same reality, as having an experience out in the real world. 

That's one of the wonderful things that you can do in a trance.  Erickson would spend hours teaching his clients to go into a trance deep enough that they could have imagined experiences that were real to them.  And once he could do that, he could orchestrate experiences for them that they would not otherwise have in the world.  And those experiences then became the basis or the opportunity for them to change, to acquire a different perspective on their problem. 

Doug:       And he would, in a sense, by telling these stories and by using the language patterns, make sure that they create the correct meaning out of the experience. 

 David:     That's right.  It was very controlled.  I think he really controlled what happened.  Or tried to control what happened, exactly as you say. He had very clearly in mind, I think, the experience that this person needed, how he was going to help create that experience for them.  And then he used those language patterns to make it real for them, to put them in the experience, and to, in a sense, fortify it with all kinds of embedded... not commands, but embedded suggestions and ideas and so on.  So, yeah, he brought all of that to bear.  My sense is that he really knew where he wanted this person to go, where they needed to go.  He had a very strong idea of that.  And everything he did was always in support of where this person needed to go. 

Doug:       Now, when you do therapy with people, how do you approach it?  How do you get to know where they need to go, what kind of experience that you need to provide for them?  How do you decide if it's going to be a trance experience or a task assignment or how do you come up with a therapeutic plan? 

 David:     Okay, I want to make a distinction.  To me, you asked me kind of two different questions.  One is about the approach I'm going to take in terms of "Well, am I going to put this person in a trance?  Am I going to just talk with them?  Or am I going to give them a task?  Am I going to use a technique?"  That's one thing.  The other is what do they need in terms of an experience?  What kind of change? 

Doug:       Okay. 

 David:     You know, how do I know what kind of change they need? 

Doug:       Right. 

 David:     Because to me, the technique or the trance or the task, all of that is going to be in service of the change that they need. 

Doug:       Sure. 

 David:     I don't even think about what the approach is until I have an idea about what it is that they need in terms of a change.  So, do you want me to answer that? 

Doug:       Yes, please. 

 David:     Well, the way I get my answer to that question is I do my darnedest to try and recreate their problem in my own experience. 

Doug:       Do you try to step into their shoes? 

 David:     I try to step into their shoes, into their world.  As I'm asking them questions about who they are, where they live, what's the world they live in, what's important to them in their problem situation, what are they thinking, what's going on in their feelings...as I'm gathering all that information, I am actually trying it on in my own experience.  I'm building it in my own experience.  I try and become that little kid, you know, that eight-year-old kid who's still wetting his bed. 

Doug:       In a sense, just to interrupt you for a moment, like we said in the previous conversation, in a sense, it's the same idea as modeling. 

 David:     Yes, it is the same for me.

Doug:       It's the same as if you want to model an ability of someone. You would be trying it on as you go along to see if you can get, you know, this golf swing correct.  And the same way, you apply the same process to a person with a problem, per se, to see how you can recreate that in you: What's the structure of that? 

 David:     They have got a structure of experience that works perfectly well to produce this problem. 

Doug:       Exactly. 

 David:     So in that sense, putting it that way, it's no different than any ability that a human being has.  It's just one that doesn't serve them. 

Doug:       Right. 

 David:     So I want to understand the structure but I want to understand how it works for them, how it works to be them.  And so, what I'm doing is gathering information until I can reproduce in my own experience, to the extent that I believe I can do that, until I can reproduce in my own experience their problem so that I can be jealous in the way that they're jealous, or scared in the way that they're scared, or grieving in the way that they're grieving.  Once I can do that, then I step into what they want, you know, what's the desired outcome here? 

And I ask myself, "Okay, how did I get from there?" there being in the present problem: "How did I get from there to being here in this desired outcome?"  That is, what needed to change in my thinking, in my perception and the kinds of experiences I had. Or perhaps even in my environment, you know, it could be something situational or environmental.  What needed to be changed so that I could be here, here being that desired future? 

Doug:                               Right. 

 David:     And whatever the answer is to that is for me what I will then go for in working with that person. 

Doug:       So you want to then create an experience or something that will help them to go from point A to point B.

 David:     I have no idea what Erickson did in that regard.  You know, one of the things that happens is that, like everybody, I have intuitions about what's going on with people, based on my life experiences.  And, you know, from going through the process I just described, I learned a lot about what goes into people's experiences.  And so, it often is the case that I can sit down and be talking and somebody tells me what their problem is, and after very little information, I already have a very good idea about what they need in terms of a change. I haven't really gone through that whole process completely and diligently because I've already been there many times with this kind of situation, this kind of person. 

So I suspect Erickson had a phenomenal grasp and source of those patterns of understanding regarding how human beings work. 

Doug:       Yeah.  Yeah, he did his homework. 

 David:     He did. 

Doug:       And had a lot of life experience obviously. 

 David:     He did and he started young. 

Doug:       Yes.  If you were to, at that point in this intervention, this interaction with this person that we're imaging, decide that what you would want to do is tell him a story, tell him a therapeutic metaphor, where would that come from?  Would you say, "Hold on a minute, I've got to go write something?" and, you know... 

 David:     Well, in fact, in the early days, that's exactly what I did.  In fact, it was more than that.  When I first started doing it, I would gather information like crazy and take all kinds of notes and then send them away for the week, you know. 

Doug:       See you next week. 

 David:     They'd come back for their appointment next week and then... 

Doug:       Same time, same place.  Same time next week. 

 David:     Exactly, and then in the intervening week, I would very carefully work out this metaphorical story to tell them. I'd bring them back, you know, put them in a trance and tell the story.  I was pretty diligent about that.  And then, of course, it got easier and I actually did go through a period where I would gather lots of information, put my client in a trance, and then go out of the room and sit down outside the room and furiously figure out the metaphor I was going to tell them and come back and tell it. 

Doug:       Did you just leave them sitting there in trance? 

 David:     Yep. 

Doug:       A little time distortion.  I really wasn't gone for 15 minutes. 

 David:     No, no, no, I would give them something to do in the trance and tell them, you know, when they next heard my voice, they would go even deeper in trance or something like that.  I used to also sit there in front of them while they were in trance and figure out the story on a piece of paper.  And then it would get easier and easier.  Like most muscles you exercise, the more I did it, the stronger I got at it and the easier it got.  You know, I was going through the world looking at everything in terms of metaphors and so I found them and got used to thinking of things in that way. So it got easier.  Now, usually as I first start talking to somebody, I start to formulate a story. 

Doug:       You start to formulate a story. Is it always a fresh story or do you recycle some of the old stories? 

 David:     Both, both.  You know, I think there is no problem with using a story I've used before, as long as it's tailored to this person.  I personally am very much not in favor of canned stories, but that's just me.  There are some that work very well for people and I think that's terrific. But, as you've, I'm sure, gathered from things I've said, I've just got a thing about responding to people individually.  So that's one of my hang-ups. 

Doug:       You know, I think it's interesting that when I was a musician back in the day, I learned jazz in a couple of different ways, jazz and various other forms of improvisation.  One was to copy other people's improvisations, which, of course, isn't improvisation.  But I would sit and listen and write out the actual notes that, you know, B. B. King was playing or whatever.  I tried to emulate, even though I was playing piano, I'd try to follow that lead line on the keyboard that he was playing on the guitar.  And then I'd try to play it exactly the way I heard it from him. 

 David:     Yep. 

Doug:       And then, there were other times when I would just, you know, try to forget all of that and have it come from within me and whatever I was sort of singing in my head, trying to play that and it was sort of a different approach towards the same end that were ultimately, I'd like to think, I integrated the learnings from these other masters that I was studying.

 David:     I think you described it beautifully, I mean, that is certainly my experience.  Not only learning to tell metaphors but to do NLP and work with people, I emulated, mimicked, copied, tried to reproduce as closely as I could people who I wanted to learn from and I wanted to be able to do what they did and I think that's...

Doug:       But you never told Erickson's stories, you never stole his stories, did you? 

 David:     No, oh, no!  Oh, no.  I wouldn't. 

Doug:       I did. 

 David:     Oh, great! 

Doug:       Not exactly, not word for word or anything but, you know. 

 David:     Let me think.  No, no, I didn't.  No, I didn't. 

Doug:       OK.

 David:     In fact, actually that's an interesting question.  I'm just kind of thinking back on those days.  So maybe I'll confess something here.  I'm remembering, I think what happened is that there was this period where I was almost in secret kind of becoming the expert on therapeutic metaphor.  You know, I was really working on it.  And somehow, I kind of got introduced into the seminar and therapeutic world of NLP by Richard and John and others as Mr. Metaphor.  So suddenly I was thrust into having some notoriety about this that was completely unearned. 

So I think, you know, as I kind of remember back, my feeling is that I felt that I had to justify this position that I was suddenly thrust into and so, I think I felt I had to come up with my own stories, in order to prove that I deserved the position that I was being put in. 

Doug:       Right, you couldn't very well just be... 

 David:     Right, I couldn't kind of just be a student along with other people at that point.  That's interesting; I'll have to think about that. 

Doug:       That is interesting. 

 David:     No, I think its fine to use other people's stories. People ask me if they can use my stories.  I say, "That's fine.  Sure, Just make sure that you tell it in a way that takes into consideration the person you're telling it to, rather than it being about the story."  Because I don't think there's magic in the stories, I don't think there's magic in techniques.  I think there is magic in the interaction between you and this other person as you're telling them the story. 

Doug:       Yeah, yeah.  And certainly, you know, I've noticed one of the things that sets apart Erickson and Ericksonian people, whomever they may be, a good therapist from a bad therapist, that I think is crucial in working with a person is, in a sense, observing that person all the time.  I remember Steven Gilligan saying the three secrets to effective therapy, number one is to observe, number two is to observe, and number three is to observe.  And yet, I have sometimes seen, when people are working from a script or that sort of thing, that they've essentially got their nose buried in the book or in the script or whatever and they're basically ignoring the human being that's sitting three feet away from them. 

 David:     Yeah, I've seen that an awful lot.  And I do understand, as a stage in learning, having a script and following it.  I completely understand that.  I know what it is to do that.  I've done that and I completely understand that and I think that's okay as long as the goal is to throw away the script. 

Doug:       After you wrote your stories, went out in the waiting room and kept the person in trance and came back in 15 minutes later with a story... how would you deliver it?  Would you read it? 

 David:     Well, initially, you bet your life I did, because, of course, I wanted it to be good and just right. 

Doug:       Just right. 

 David:     Yeah, you bet.  But it was okay because they had their eyes closed and they didn't know I was reading to them.  Or at least I flattered myself that they didn't know that.  But yeah, initially, I sure did.  And that was fine, you know, as a stage of learning, I think that's just fine.  You know, ultimately, I think what I'd like to do in telling a metaphor is to have it be a conversation that I'm having with this person.  That as I'm telling the story, you know, and they're looking at me - I'm talking now about telling them a metaphor when they're not in a formal trance - they're looking at me and, even though they're not speaking, they are still interacting with me.  That's my experience; that I'm watching and paying attention to what's happening with them as I'm telling the story. And as they respond, they are, as in a conversation, letting me know what they're getting from what I'm saying, where I need to go in my story, what's working, what's not working, and so on.  And that's what I really like, that's what I really like to do now. 

Doug:       And just to be clear, when you say they're telling you, they're not telling you. 

 David:     They're not verbally telling me. 

Doug:       Right. 

 David:     But, you know, I'm watching what's going on with their facial expressions, the tearing in their eyes, their breathing, their color, all of those subtle responses. 

Doug:       So they're telling you other than consciously. 

 David:     Yeah, yeah.  Right, right, right. 

Doug:       So for a person who really wants to emulate Erickson at this point in time, when he's not around to have us sit in a room with him and tell us stories and have him be working on us kind of incessantly and subtly and covertly and that sort of thing, how would you suggest, besides reading J. Haley's Uncommon Therapy, how would you suggest we go about that?  For instance, you said when you were working with a client, you'd put them in trance and then tell them a story.  How do you do that?  How do you put them in trance? 

 David:     You get a watch fob...  How do you put them in trance? 

Doug:       Yeah, I mean, I know how I'd do it but how do you do it?  Do you just say, "Close your eyes"? 

 David:     That's pretty good. 

Doug:       Is tonality important to you?

 David:     Well, in general, you grab their attention and then limit their foci of attention dramatically and in a way that is congruent with their own psychological needs.  I think that is how you do it.  I think, in a nutshell, that is what Erickson did.  He would first grab their attention and then limit their attention in a way that was congruent with their psychological needs.  So, for example, you know, the person who says, "You can't put me in a trance."  Erickson would say, "You're right, I can't put you in a trance.  I want you to stay as alert as you can possibly stay because anything I might say might start to put you into a trance.  So you need to be extremely alert and pay attention to everything I say so that you don't go into a trance unless you want to." 

So what has he just done?  What's he doing there?  He's not trying to go against this guy's psychological make-up.  He's going, "Oh, this is somebody who needs to be in control.  He needs to believe he's in control."  And so, instead of trying to convince him, "Oh, its okay.  You can give up your control," he goes ahead and uses that need for control as a basis for completely focusing his attention on something.  Narrowing it down and narrowing it down until the rest of the world can go away.  And, of course, he grabs his attention right from the get go by saying, "You're right.  I can't put you into a trance." 

Nobody asked me what you just asked me before (thank god).  You know, my off the top of my head answer is just that, it's kind of those three, I would say it kind of parses out into those three things:  Grabbing this person's attention, then focusing it and limiting it as much as possible (or continuing to focus it more and more or limiting it more and more) that's number two, and doing it through, you know, who this person is, psychologically. 

Doug:                               Okay. 

 David:                             Wow! 

Doug:       Give me another example.  Hypnotize me.  Now. 

 David:     Boy, oh, boy!  Now if I was going to do that, you know, now just think about what you've just done; just think about what you've just done.  You have put me on the spot on the phone.  Here you are talking to me on the phone.  There are other people who might be listening but they're muted.  But, I'm not muted.  You're not muted.  But there is something going on right now.  You know about putting people into trances.  And then you put me on the spot wanting me to put you in a trance.  And you already know all about that. 

Doug:       Yes? 

 David:     Well, that's how I would start anyway. 

Doug:       That's a good start.  Keep going. 

 David:     Oh, come on.  I have to say, I'm very red in the face right now.  Nobody has ever asked me to put them in trance on the phone and I've never thought of doing that before. 

Doug:       You've never put anybody in trance on the phone? 

 David:     Not intentionally. 

Harlan:     He got me just now. 

Doug:       Who's that?  How are you doing?  Glad you could join us.  Ladies and gentlemen, Dr. Harlan Kilstein. 

Harlan:     I've actually been listening for a long time and been absolutely fascinated.  I didn't want to rush in.  But ever since David just put me into trance--

 David:     Oh, you silver tongued devil you. 

Harlan:     Actually, I wasn't planning on getting on the call but this is the only chance I get to speak to David. 

 David:     Oh, I see, I'm that hard to get a hold of, huh? 

Harlan:     You're that hard to get a hold of now.  This has been absolutely fascinating.  There are so many processes going on in your mind, simultaneously, how do you choose which approach?  Trance, not trance, task, no task, story, no story?

 David:     Well, I make an assessment about this person who's in front of me. So, for instance, I'm working with a client and they'll remind me of something and I'll start telling them some little story out of my own experience that they reminded me of and watch what happens.  Do they go away into the story?  Are they staring at me, eyes unblinking, going into the story?  Or are they just waiting for me to finish so they can get back to what they want to talk about? 

That's an example, if I see them getting lost in my story, I know this is somebody that - or I suspect anyway - this is somebody who would be very responsive to, at the very least, telling a metaphor and probably trance work as well.  My preference, and this is a David preference, my preference is to give people tasks in the world.  I was completely imprinted by my first experiences of an Ericksonian approach to therapy, imprinted to the whole notion of tasks, giving people things to do in the world.  What I like about that is that it is in the real world where people live. Whatever changes they make are going to need to be operating in that real world that they come from.  And so, if at all possible, I like to create reference experiences, experiences for people in their daily world that make a difference, that reorganizes their thinking or re- tune their experience. 

Doug:       Would you give us an example of one that you did with someone? 

 David:     Let's see now, what would be a good example?  All right.  Well, this is one that actually got me in a whole lot of...oh, no, that one got me in a lot of trouble at the Ericksonian Conference.  This other one didn't get me in trouble-- 

Harlan:     I'd rather hear the one that got you in trouble. 

 David:     It really did get me in hot water, I've got to tell you.  Well, I'll tell you about it.  But the easier one first. I had this guy came to me who had what's called a shy bladder.  That's what he called it, anyway. 

Doug:       He couldn't pee in public? 

 David:     He couldn't pee in public, right, so he'd go into public bathrooms and he couldn't pee in them.  And, if anybody was in the room, that was it, there was no way he could do it.  And so I had him drink a big glass of water and tell me about it and we talked about it.  And then I had him drink another glass of water and we talked some more about it and I talked about some of my experiences.  I had him drink about 4 big glasses of water and I said, "We need to go for a walk."  And I took him nearby to a mall and we went into a public restroom. 

By that time, of course, he really needed to take a leak.  And he really needed to go into the public restroom and so I said, "Well, let's go."  So we went into the public restroom and I hung over the urinal while he took a leak, you know.  I mean, I was just staring down at him. 

Doug:       Now, would that get you in trouble at the Ericksonion..? 

 David:     Oh, that one didn't. That one was okay.  No, the one that got me in trouble was a woman who came - this is quite a while ago, a long time ago - who, in brief, she got cooties from her parents and her parents could spread cooties.  She couldn't have these cooties on her so she had over a 100 pairs of gloves. She was very careful to wash and clean everything, her house was immaculate.  Her parents were not allowed to come into the same city that she lived in... there were a lot of elements to this story.  I'll cut through the middle part.  But this is a client that both I and Robert Dilts worked with for almost two years and couldn't get anywhere with her. 

And finally, what I did was, I knew where she lived and I actually broke into her house.  Now here comes the disclaimer (I did this at the Erickson conference, too) nobody should do what I did.  This was in the early days of NLP.  I was in my twenties.  I thought I could do anything and did.  So I broke into her house. I knew she was out and I knew when she would be back.  And so when she got home... oh, I also had sent her a phone message saying I had met with her parents, which I had, which meant that I was now cootieized.  And so when she came home, I was sitting there in her house.  She had no way to know where I had been in her house, what I had touched, or anything.  It was so overwhelming to her, the thought of trying to clean her house, that she decided she just simply had to give it up.  So she did.  Now, you know, I don't recommend doing this. 

Doug:       Well, it's also interesting that you worked with her for two years prior to that. 

 David:     Yeah. 

Doug:       If that was the first thing you had done, I don't think it would have worked.  I'm just guessing.

 David:     No, we had tried, separately and together, everything we could think of to do. 

Doug:       Right. 

 David:     And this was the only other thing that I could think of to do.  Anyway, the Erickson folks absolutely went up in arms. I talked about this case at a panel I did on tasking with several other people.  And people in the audience afterwards got so upset because it was unprofessional. 

Doug:       Well, yeah. 

 David:     Oh, yeah, of course it was, of course it was.  And I was explicit about that before I told the story and it didn't make any difference.  There were letters written. 

Doug:       Really? 

 David:     Oh, yeah.  It was the only tape from the whole Erickson conference that they wouldn't sell. 

Doug:       Speaking of taping, we're about at the end of our scheduled time.  We can go longer if you're willing. 

 David:     Well, I don't know if you want more examples from the past or what you would like from me.  You know, I'm a talker so if you want to ask me some more questions, I'll stay a little while longer. 

Doug:       Yeah, let's do another 5 minutes or so.  Okay.  Related to tasking, there's a section in your book, <i>Phoenix</i>, that I was fascinated by and I wondered if you could comment on.  It's a story about a student of Erickson's who had lost a leg as a sophomore in college.  And had, up to that point, been a very outgoing, gregarious, fun loving, loved by everybody kind of guy.  Then when he lost his leg in this accident and had to wear a prosthesis, he became very opposite, very withdrawn, very, kind of, depressed and antisocial and lost a lot of his friends, etc. 

 David:     Yeah, "Now I'm just a cripple." 

Doug:       Right and Erickson devised this scheme wherein he had told some of his other students and staff to spread the word that Erickson is going to do one of his practical jokes.  And he had - I'm remembering this as best I can - he had one of the students on the given day go up and hold the elevator on the fourth floor, if I recall correctly, and another person was a kind of lookout.  And another person waiting on the ground floor, sort of pushing the button saying, "I don't know.  I think the janitor is holding the elevator for his paint cans or something."

And finally, a crowd gathered, people wanting to use the elevator, but they were, of course, all in on it that something was going on that Erickson was doing.  And this student showed up with the peg leg and they were all waiting and waiting and waiting and finally, Erickson turned to this boy and said, "Hey, how about you and me, us cripples, walk up the stairs and leave these able bodies to wait for the elevator?" 

 David:      Right.

Doug:       And then, they hobbled up the stairs together and basically, from that day forward, the kid was his old self again. 

 David:     Yeah, and if I remember correctly, then they released the elevator and everybody in the class got in the elevator and they were waiting for them at the top of the stairs. 

Doug:       Oh, really?

 David:     If I remember correctly, yeah. Well, I think it's fascinating.  I mean, there's so much that went on there because, you know, in a sense, Erickson is aligning himself, who is a respect figure, with the guy and now we're the cripples and all the able bodies and I'm sure he used interesting tonality when he called them, ‘other able bodies,' sarcastically saying that they were just too lazy. Disdainful.  So the guy was now sort of one with Erickson, if you will, and it gave him a whole other perspective.  And what was amazing about it, to me, is that there was no therapy.  You know, he didn't ever sit down with him and say, "Okay, let's talk about your depression" or "Where'd this happen?" or "How do you feel about this?"  There was no... 

Doug:       "You're just as much a man as you ever were."

 David:     Right.  "Yeah, what's a leg?  That doesn't matter.  You're just as much a man as you ever were.  Now come on, buck up."

Doug:       I mean, the guy never even realized that there was therapy happening, it just did. 

 David:     Yeah, he doesn't need to.  How about that?  I don't know what to say about it beyond what you've said, you know.  It's a fabulous example of Erickson thinking, "Okay, what change in perception of himself and the world does this guy need so that he can move on?" 

Doug:       And how do I create it for him? 

 David:     Yes, and have a different sense of who he is and his own self-worth and his capabilities.  And then instead of telling him that he ought to think this way and he ought to feel this way, he engineered, created an experience for him to actually feel and to perceive those things.  And, of course, it doesn't necessarily - I think it should be said - that doesn't guarantee it will work. 

Doug:       Right. 

 David:     But it does, I think, create the opportunity to have a real experience. You know, one of the things that can happen in therapy is that the problem and the person's experience gets put out on a table.  And now we're talking about that experience, and a frame gets put around it so it makes it much easier for the client to, in a sense, argue with you about their experience.  And to keep it at a distance.  And they can agree with you, you know, "Oh, that's right" and "I see that."  They can even have some kind of epiphany but, you know, we're talking about "it." 

And one of the things that giving somebody either a real world task or experience in the real world, or giving them a vicarious experience through a metaphor or through trance, one of the things that really does is it strips away that dissociation.  It puts the person inside the experience of change rather than on the outside talking about the change.  Does that make any sense? 

Doug:      Yeah, absolutely. 

 David:     So I think that's a really important thing to keep in mind if we're going to talk about what Erickson did - and one of the reasons why he was so effective - was that, whether it was in the real world or in the vicarious real world of a trance, he was always putting people inside of what subjectively, was a real experience for them rather than talking about them. 

Doug:       Right.  I think that's fascinating.  That's really, really interesting. 

 David:     Well, should we, on that note..? 

Doug:       No, I want to ask you one other question, if you don't mind.  Oh, okay.  All right.  I know I'm pressing my luck here but I have one other thing.  I have also noticed that in your work, Erickson's work, and many people's work whom I admire - Bandler, clearly - that humor plays a big part in therapy as well, and in the interventions and the way that people actually make change.  Can you talk about that just for a moment?  Is that a conscious, if you will, decision to utilize humor?  What's the therapeutic benefit of humor? 

 David:     Well, it's intentional.  I'm certainly not trying to be funny or make jokes.  Well, let me, I don't know how to put this.  Of course I do.  Let's see. I certainly won't joke about everything, but I think that there's a tremendous amount of freeing that can happen when people can laugh at themselves and their own situations.  I mean, what it does is it puts them, instead of inside, you know, we were just talking about being inside the experience...there are a lot of times when you want people to be disassociated. 

You know, you've got people who are taking themselves so seriously that they can't see anything outside of that.  Or they are so inside their sadness or their being upset that they can find no way outside of that.  What makes something funny is that you are seeing yourself from a completely different perspective, which means you're seeing yourself from a dissociated position and one that's unexpected.  That's what makes it funny, is that it's unexpected.  And there are times when that really is important. 

Sometimes it's important simply so that you can get access to this person and so that they can get access to themselves, so you can actually get them talking.  There are times when you want them to be able to talk about their situation and about their problem.  And humor is very good for freeing them by putting them on the outside of it.  Also, humor can be used as a way to, in a sense, anchor in, program in - I don't like using those words...but teaching this person, let's put it that way, teaching a person to have a different response to some of their usual, typical patterns. So that when they get into a certain situation that they often find themselves in, because you brought them out of it through humor and joking again and again, they've learned to do that, too. 

So, yeah, I think it's fine.  You know, a wonderful example of a person who does that is... 

Doug:      Old what's his name.  Frank Farley. 

 David:     Frank Farley, yeah.  Frank Farley. Fantastic. He's a master at that. Author of Provocative Therapy, a book that I think everybody, if you work with people, I think that's a book  everybody ought to read.  There's a lot to learn from Frank. 

Doug:       Frank has actually sort of re-emerged.  He's been doing some programs in England and some of his programs are available now on CD and DVD. 

 David:     Yes, and I think there's going to be some more coming out as I understand it.

Doug:       That's a great resource. 

 David:     Yes, he is.  He's wonderful and his ability to help people get outside of their patterns through humor is absolutely wonderful, absolutely wonderful. 

Doug:       I had a mentor in Jungian psychology once who described it a little bit as the distinction between having a problem or the problem having you or you having it. 

 David:     Oh, right, yeah, which would you rather have?  Which situation would you rather be in? 

Doug:       I have it by the tail. 

 David:     Yeah!  Well, that's true, that's true.  Get that perspective on it.  It doesn't necessarily make the problem go away, but you can laugh about it. 

Doug:       Right.

 David:     And my goodness, what a difference that is.

Doug:       Harlan, are you still there? 

Harlan:     No.

Doug:       Do you have any final questions or thoughts? 

Harlan:     No, just this was a wonderful time to get inside David.  He hasn't been available or out there as he used to be a long time ago and anytime you get to pick David's brain, it's like mining gold. 

 David:     Aha!

Harlan:     And, because you've got the marketer on the phone, David's latest book, which is all about modeling, is available only on the web at www.expandyourworld.net and it's an incredible book and DVD. 

Doug:       Expand or expanding? 

 David:     No, expand. 

Doug:       Just expand, www.expandyourworld.net.

Harlan:     And the book and DVD is just something that belongs in everybody's library.  So if you don't have it yet, I would definitely go there and get it.  I have mine right here.  Yeah, I heartily endorse it. 

 David:     You hardly endorse it? 

Harlan:     I heartily, heartily.  A little bit, I endorse it. 

 David:     Are you done with this lecture? 

Doug:       Yeah, pretty much. 

 David:     All right. 

Doug:       Well, thank you so much, David.  This is great. 

 David:     Oh, it's been a pleasure, been a pleasure.  Good night all and I'll talk with you again some time. 

Doug:       Great.  Good night. 

Harlan:     Good night. 

Doug:       Good night, everyone. 

Harlan:     Bye.

Doug:       Bye-bye.