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Modeling Tutorial Conference Call #2
with David Gordon

April 24, 2005
moderated by Douglas O'Brien

Doug: The example that came up in the beginning of study group was the example that you had spoken to Adam about refining his ability of speed reading to more, well, as far as how David refined your ability and that David stated about having the preference of finding an exemplar that is an athlete that can also comprehend what they're reading very well and one of the questions that came up was "how do you find an exemplar with those specific abilities?".

David: Ok, well there are several ways to find exemplars. One of the ways that is happens often is that, just as we move through our lives, we just happen to meet or know somebody who has an ability that impresses us or that we would like to have ourselves and there you have it. There is your exemplar, if you are looking for somebody and you don't have an exemplar, I think the easiest and fastest way to find one is to just start asking people if they know somebody who has that ability and you'd be surprised how quickly you will find exemplars by doing that. You ask somebody "Do you know of anybody who has that ability?" and if they say know then the next thing to ask them is "Do you know anybody who might know somebody who has that ability?" I think you'll find that within one or two steps you'll going to find a referral to somebody who has the ability you're looking for. Then, of course, you still have to, you know, meet that person, get some experience with them and satisfy yourself that they do have that ability you want. In terms of finding people, I think that's the quickest way. Now, Adam, I suggest you do the same thing but, of course, as we talked about, we're looking for, for you, somebody who also operates in a particular realm of life, there are particular areas or realms of life that they are familiar with and comfortable with, that is they are into sports and not just watching sports, they're into playing sports. [laughter] So, what you want to be doing is, that's the segment of the population that within which you what to be looking for your exemplar, so if you don't know somebody already who is playing sports that has the ability, then ask your friends or people you know who do play sports, do they know somebody who is into sports and has that ability. So, that's what I would suggest doing, ok.

Doug: Thank you.

Tina: David, I was wondering, in regards to what you were talking to Adam about, and I'm not saying that he might have Attention Deficit, [laughter] In the case that someone did have Attention Deficit Disorder, [laughter] and they wanted to be able to read quicker and be able to retain the information more efficiently by reading with that physical, would you change your line of questioning to the exemplar or would you need to look for someone who has Attention Deficit Disorder and also be an athlete and also be able to read well and retain?

David: Holy Mackerel, [laughter] basically the answer, my answer anyway, would be your second choice, your second suggestion. That is, if I was working with somebody who had ADD and wanted to help them be able to focus their attention on their reading and have better comprehension as they read, I would definitely want, the first thing I'd do is try to find somebody to serve as an exemplar who themselves are ADD and learned how to focus on and comprehend what they are reading, that would be the best exemplar to get. The second choice would be, a little bit different way of going about it, but would be to perhaps find somebody who was successful with working with people who had ADD and helping them to read and comprehend what they are reading and Model that person and how they go about working with people who have ADD, to help them do that reading. Those are the two ways I would go about it but definitely, somebody who has ADD and you want to Model an ability from them, the first choice is to find somebody who is in that same experiential boat, [laughter] and that's the person I would Model.

Tina: That makes a lot of sense and to expand on that a little bit, I mean I could be talking about anyone with any type of disorder, you know, depression or a lot of issues that people have.

David: Yes, absolutely, for instance, a humorous example that I have faced for thirty years now which is, you know, those of you who have seen me know that I am on the slender side, [laughter] so, I have had for thirty years, people coming up and wanting to Model me for how to stay thin. Well, that's a waste of time, I'm not the person to Model for that because there is nothing I do to stay slim, I'm a freak on nature in that regard. So, there is nothing you're going to learn from me about losing weight, instead a better exemplar would be somebody who was overweight and loss weight and kept it off, that would be a better exemplar than I would be.

Tina: That makes sense, someone who has had the experience and went through the process.

David: There's nothing I do in the structure of my experience to stay thin. My parents blessed me with a bunch of brown fat cells, apparently, or something, I don't know what it is. [laughter] It's just one of those things that David's got nothing to do with, you know, it's a genetic thing.

Doug: Thank you. The next question was: Tony was working with a gentleman this weekend and just practicing the Array and the ability was how to troubleshooting alarm service calls and what he was getting was a lot of the how to, manual (book) type of answers. For example, when he asked him what was important about that ability, (the answer was) that the light stops blinking. So, what we were discussing in study group, does the, and we're not sure of, does the ability need to be refined or do we need to dig deeper into that question as far as what specifically they are looking for.

David: Well, so I could better answer this question if I had been there or had some more experience of how Tony approached asking the questions and setting up this person for it. But, let me just try the first things that occur to me and we'll see if they are useful or not. As a chunk size, what was the ability?

Tony: Troubleshooting alarm service calls.

David: Troubleshooting alarm service calls, so is this somebody sitting in a room somewhere and lights or alarms start flashing and they have to respond, is that it?

Tony: Yeah, this is somebody that has like 13 or 14 stores that he has put alarm systems into, he is the technician for his company on every thing electronic or electrical and so, often enough, somebody will call and the alarm system won't turn on so the guy can go home. So, what do you do, well that's what we talked about and what I was getting was mostly this technical, you know, how to do kind of stuff that I have no more idea than a goat what he's talking about.

David: [laughter].

Tony: But, I found my notes, so let me read quickly, like for example, well what's important to you as you're doing this, as you're doing this troubleshooting these alarm calls, you're on the phone with a guy, what have you, what is important to you and the answer I got was this: "I want to be successful with this, I want to get the system up and running the way it was designed to be, to get the functionally back the way it was suppose to be and to do this in a minimum amount of time. Now, did I get the wrong answer?

David: Beautiful, OH NO, Tony you're on goal, you just don't know it. Where I would plant my flag as I think we have talked about or maybe you have read in the book, where I would begin is to go, ok the criterion here, what's important to him is to be successful, that's the criterion and then he goes on to beautifully describe what he means by being successful. Having the system up and running in a short amount of time as possible.

Tony: Some of the background to this that came out later on is that, at one time it used to be if the thing didn't work, he would have to get into the truck and drive three to four hours by the time he gets there and back from the shop and stuff like that, now he's got the technology, the software or all the gizmos and bells and whistles such that most of the time this can be done in 15 to 30 minutes, at most, on the phone with the store manager because he can pull up everything on his laptop and he can see all the cameras and whatever he sees on the thing, you know, and so now, it's much more streamlined, so when I asked him, " Well, why is this important to you?"

David: Why is what important?

Tony: What is the Motivating Cause and Effect that box there?

David: Yeah, I know that, but I need to know the question you asked because.

Tony: Well, basically, I just went through the little worded sheet. Why is being successful important.

David: Why is being successful important, ok, good.

Tony: So, what I got was, among other things, "Well, you know, I'm responsible for this, kind of like it's impacting another employee so he can go home, if I screw this up the police have to come, the company's going to get a fine, so this has to be done right, this has to be done correctly, it makes me valuable to the company so not only do I get a paycheck but I get to enjoy more of my life when I'm not at work because at which this happens at midnight on Saturday, or whenever, most of the time this can be done on the phone and with a laptop."

David: Alright now, would you say that all of that is motivating him to be successful? Because some of what he says there, as you described that and I try it on and I go "yeah", I get how that could be motivating to be successful. So, for instance, he talks about being responsible, so there's something about his sense of self, his investment in this, and he's got a sense of self that's in relation to other people, you know, (quoted from exemplar) "What I do not only impacts other people like my co-workers and it also impacts my life in terms of my having more freedom, more time to do the things I want to do, so I think that's in there is, in that mélange, is his Motivating Cause-Effect. Then, when he goes on to say at the end, what did he say?

Tony: Well, it allows him, of course, to get a paycheck, makes him more valuable to the company; he gets to enjoy life more when he is not at work.

David: Yeah, and then you said he finished up with something. Some technical thing you add on there, anyway, that wasn't Motivating Cause and Effect, whatever it was. (because at which this happens at midnight on Saturday, or whenever, most of the time this can be done on the phone and with a laptop.")

David: I would pay attention to is as he is listing off all of these results or consequences of the work that he does, of being successful, what I would be paying attention to is where is the "juice", you know, as he is listing these things, some of them are going to be, "yeah, this is a consequence, that's all true," some of those things or maybe one of those things is going to have a lot of "juice" behind it. That is, it will have a strong analog, you'll hear it in his voice, you'll see it, you know, "yeah, I get a paycheck, it helps other people in the company AND I HAVE A LOT OF FREEDOM."

Tony: I was just going to say that going back in my mind that was "I get to enjoy life when I'm not at work."

David: There you go. That's it, that's the Motivating Cause-Effect. The other stuff, it's true, yes are consequences, yes he thinks about them and he knows about them, that's not where the "juice" is for him.

Tony: Ok, when I asked him the Sustaining Emotion and basically all I'm doing is reading off the little chart we got.

David: Good.

Tony: Dedication to job, sense of duty and I tried to ask it in as many ways that I could think to ask and that's basically what it came back to, you know, "I have a duty to do this and to do it right and I'm dedicated to doing this right," now is that a Sustaining Emotion?

David: Well, the part that could be a Sustaining Emotion is feeling dedicated and the other one that he mentioned, previously, that is very similar and it may be the same for him and a better way to talk about it is feeling responsible. I think, it's probably one of those or in that family of emotion; the Sustaining Emotion is the one about dedication or responsibility. Does that make sense?

Tony: Yes, that makes sense.

Doug: Are you, when he said about dedication or feeling are you assuming that he is feeling that or if they just say, you know, "Having a duty to my job or being responsible."

David: When he starts saying those things, then I imagine being him in that situation and hold in my experience that it's important "that my duty, that I have a duty to my job, that it's important to me to do what I'm here to do for various reasons" and I pay attention to how I feel. I just pay attention to how, you know, when I'm holding those kinds of ideas and those things are important to me, how does that affect my emotional state, what happens to my state, how do I feel and I feel a sense of responsibility. I feel a strong sense of responsibility and what I would do is, first of all, he has used that word once, at least, so, you know, this is not a surprise but if the person isn't using a word or words to describe their Sustaining Emotion that fits or that's obvious, then I will just give words to what I'm feeling. I'll come back to him and say, you know, the feeling I get is, when I step into what you are doing there, is that I feel deeply responsible. That's all you need to do, you just put that out and what will happen is your exemplar, this guy, he'll almost certainly do one of two things, he'll either go "yeah, that's right, that' what it is" or he'll go "no, that's not quite what it is, it's more like this" and then he'll correct you and he'll give you what it is. I think maybe I've talked about this before, I know we talked about it in the book somewhere, about offering feedback to your exemplar about how your own experience is affected when you step into their ability. What that does is really helps them identify what is going on in their own experience because it gives them something to compare their experience to and either it will be a match, which is great, or because, you know, what happens is when somebody tells you what your experience is and it's not true, it right away, by contrast, forces you to notice what is true for you. Does that make sense? I hope it makes sense to folks and even if it doesn't, try it. [laughter] Because I think you'll find that it's exactly the way it works.

Tony: What I'm editing out of all this is all the technical stuff that I had to go through to get to what looked like a Model to me. [laughter]

David: You've got it, you're doing great. You got out and you got that stuff.

Tony: Ok, because under Enabling Cause and Effect, I said "Well, what makes it possible for you to do all this?" and, of course, because I've read all the manuals. Then I asked "What made it possible for you to read all these manuals?"

David: Ok, now, so, about the question you're asking.

Tony: Ok, so now what I got was "I've always been fascinated with electricity, I think of this as something simple to do, it's logical, it's based on logic, there's no mystery, and it's understandable."

David: Ok, now, [laughter] we got to go back because there's this little tiny thing that you've done in asking your question that makes all the difference in the world. I'm going to guess, assume, that the way you asked him, what's his name? I guessing that the way you asked, Ron, is the way you just.

Tony: Well, not really. I mean, I tried to be gentler about it. I tried using a softener, "Ron, I'm curious, like I wouldn't be reading all these things, what makes it possible for you to read all these things?"

David: Exactly, that's it, right there! So, I'm going to ask the group "What is it about the way in which Tony just asked that question that has lead Ron and him astray?" There's something in how he asked that question.

Tony: Because I said "I wouldn't read those things"?

David: What in that question is leading him to give him the information you don't want. So, here's the thing, there is one word in the question that Tony asked that is leading you all astray, I think.

Joe: Is it possibility as opposed to enable, it seems to me that possibility is a much broader term.

David: No, it's the word, YOU. When you say, try the difference between saying, how it affects you differently when I say "What makes it possible for YOU to succeed?" and "What makes it possible for SOMEONE to succeed?" or for there to be success. "What makes it possible for there to be success?" as compared to "What makes it possible for you to succeed?"

Doug: There's a big difference.

Tina: It makes me feel like I have to defend myself, almost, to explain myself.

David: Yeah, it's a huge difference and it's very easy to, kind of, put it into that form but it makes a huge difference to take out the YOU. If you think about it, you know, what we're after with the Enabling Cause-Effect or all of the Belief Template, what we are after finding out or identifying are beliefs, generalizations, abstractions about experience and so we are not after the nuts and bolts, that's the strategy, we're not after the "how to" part, we're after what are the underlying beliefs that drive the "how to". So, when we ask the question, we want the question to also keep the person kind of at that level of abstraction, the level of generalization. When you say to the person "What makes it possible for YOU to succeed?", you're taking them right into their strategies. Does that make sense? Then say "What makes it possible for there to be success?" or "What makes it possible for someone to succeed?" something like that. It helps keep it at the level of generalization of the level of beliefs.

Tony: I see, because one of the things, like I had to wade through all the technical, "how to" jargon and stuff like that, which I've not a clue what he's talking about.

David: Right, well, you've brought on yourself. [laughter]

Tony: Because I realized as I'm doing this, you know I'm sitting there thinking, you know I'm doing something wrong. It's not supposed to sound like this.

David: [laughter] Tony, let me tell you something, you were doing the right thing, just at the wrong time. [laughter] You were in the wrong box, you weren't in the box you thought you were in. [laughter] So, there's useful information or it could be useful information but, you know, one of the things we are learning here is what are these distinctions so that we can recognize when this person is describing their experience, "Oh, he's not giving me, he's not telling me about his beliefs now, he's telling me about his strategy, he's telling me about how he does something, that's over there in another box. By knowing that, that helps us keep from getting lost in the information and it also gives us choices. We can go, "ok, Ron is now into strategies, let's move over there and start finding out about his strategies and we can come back to his beliefs later on because right now he's into strategies." Alright, so that's something that you'll just become more familiar with as you have more experience with it.

Doug: Very good and just to wrap up, David. Is there anything you'd like to mention about people finding the abilities that they would like to Model?

David: Yes, so I think as I understand it, Doug has sent all of you copies of my written answers to a slew of questions that people had.

Doug: Yes.

David: Great, so I hope you all get a chance to read those. Now, I have talked to a few people about what they would like to do as a Modeling project during the course of the seminar and I have not talked to everyone yet. So, I encourage all of you to call me or write to me about it so we can talk. You know, I'd like to have an opportunity to talk with each of you about what you'd be interested in Modeling. So, please do that.

Doug: And our outcome is, correct if I'm wrong, is to have everybody to discuss this with you before we meet in May again, correct?

David: Well, that would be nice but it's not necessary. If I don't talk with you before then, then I'll talk with you when we get together in May and if you don't want to talk with me, we'll never talk. [laughter] That's ok, too. You know, this is not a requirement, it's just one of those things that I hope everybody will do because I think it's an important part of you're getting your arms around Modeling.

Doug: Well, thank you so much for taking the time with us tonight, David.

David: Well, it's a pleasure, thank you.